Everything Kyle Lowry

[Apollo]

WebMD is not "random inernet geocities website" as you apparently want to paint it. It's written by doctors and considered a very valid source of general medical advice.

Bursitis is not some crazy complex condition. It's a swelling of the elbow that requires rest to subside. The team doctors diagnosed Kyle with bursitis, so you don't need his medical records beyond that diagnosis when the only cure for bursitis is rest.

All I know is when I go looking there it tells me I'm lucky to be alive. Then I go see a doctor and no, actually it was indigestion. Go figure.

[DanH]

All I know is when I go looking there it tells me I'm lucky to be alive. Then I go see a doctor and no, actually it was indigestion. Go figure.

Look, as much fun as it is to watch this appeal to authority logical fallacy play out real time, doctors are not infallible. Some people can speak to this from personal experience.

Results tell. Lowry clearly cannot shoot. We don't know whether rest would have helped him. We do know that what they did instead decidedly did not.

We also have the Carroll disaster this year, and the Lowry disaster last year. This is not an isolated event.

It's perfectly fair to question whether they are getting it right when they are displaying a pattern of pretty consistently getting it wrong.

[slaw]

Look, as much fun as it is to watch this appeal to authority logical fallacy play out real time, doctors are not infallible. Some people can speak to this from personal experience.

Results tell. Lowry clearly cannot shoot. We don't know whether rest would have helped him. We do know that what they did instead decidedly did not.

We also have the Carroll disaster this year, and the Lowry disaster last year. This is not an isolated event.

It's perfectly fair to question whether they are getting it right when they are displaying a pattern of pretty consistently getting it wrong.

It's not argumentum ad verecundiam. No one is appealing to their authority. We are saying they know more than us about these situations because not only do they have the training and experience, etc. they have all the information. We have none. You have none. All you have are suppositions.

Is Lowry hurt? Yes. Would resting him have helped? Who knows? Not you. Not me. Maybe he needs surgery? We. Don't. Know. Maybe what's happening was the best option from a shit pile of other terrible options. We. Don't. Know.

So, when you come on here and claim things are "disasters" and that they are "pretty consistently getting it wrong" when you don't know sweet fuck all about them other than a few media clips - that is why you are getting pushback. Fair to question? Sure. Fair to disparage and impugn? No, not based on what we don't know, which, by the way, includes all of the other various injuries and ailments that we never hear about to every other player.

[DanH]

So, when you come on here and claim things are "disasters" and that they are "pretty consistently getting it wrong" when you don't know sweet fuck all about them other than a few media clips - that is why you are getting pushback. Fair to question? Sure. Fair to disparage and impugn? No, not based on what we don't know, which, by the way, includes all of the other various injuries and ailments that we never hear about to every other player.

The fact remains that Carroll lost half a season to a surgery that his surgeon told him he was surprised he hadn't had long before then, and that we got swept in the first round last year because Lowry was so damaged (due to multiple injuries) that he was useless.

You can say all you like that we don't have the information the medical staff does. But some issues are obvious to see. People called for Lowry to get rest in January last season when he was clearly already hurting. He didn't and the season ended in disaster (surely you won't disagree with me there). Carroll was obviously hurt and came back suspiciously quickly into heavy minutes after being hurt, people pointed it out, and surprise, he got seriously hurt and needed surgery. And then Lowry this year.

You can argue that in every one of these circumstances there was literally no way the player could have gotten healthy and in shape before the playoffs. You can argue that all you like, but the pattern remains. And the results are irrefutable - Lowry has been in rough physical shape the past two playoffs with injuries and in both seasons fans called for more (and earlier) rest for him. Both times he didn't get rest and both times his injury affected him in the playoffs to a significant degree.

At a certain point it becomes difficult to accept these things as coincidences.

[Primer]

It's not argumentum ad verecundiam. No one is appealing to their authority. We are saying they know more than us about these situations because not only do they have the training and experience, etc. they have all the information. We have none. You have none. All you have are suppositions.

Is Lowry hurt? Yes. Would resting him have helped? Who knows? Not you. Not me. Maybe he needs surgery? We. Don't. Know. Maybe what's happening was the best option from a shit pile of other terrible options. We. Don't. Know.

So, when you come on here and claim things are "disasters" and that they are "pretty consistently getting it wrong" when you don't know sweet fuck all about them other than a few media clips - that is why you are getting pushback. Fair to question? Sure. Fair to disparage and impugn? No, not based on what we don't know, which, by the way, includes all of the other various injuries and ailments that we never hear about to every other player.

Resting him would have helped, it's the only treatment available for bursitis, and I guarantee it's what Lowry ends up doing when our season is over. If Lowry has done so much damage as to need surgery, then he should not be playing. The medical staff must have determined he didn't need surgery if they decided to let him play through it. If he ends up needing surgery in the offseason, I'd take that as a failure on the medical staffs part for allowing him to aggravate the injury to point of requiring surgery.

[Apollo]

It's not argumentum ad verecundiam. No one is appealing to their authority. We are saying they know more than us about these situations because not only do they have the training and experience, etc. they have all the information. We have none. You have none. All you have are suppositions.

Is Lowry hurt? Yes. Would resting him have helped? Who knows? Not you. Not me. Maybe he needs surgery? We. Don't. Know. Maybe what's happening was the best option from a shit pile of other terrible options. We. Don't. Know.

So, when you come on here and claim things are "disasters" and that they are "pretty consistently getting it wrong" when you don't know sweet fuck all about them other than a few media clips - that is why you are getting pushback. Fair to question? Sure. Fair to disparage and impugn? No, not based on what we don't know, which, by the way, includes all of the other various injuries and ailments that we never hear about to every other player.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Scraptor]

If we can't question coaches, doctors, or GMs because we don't have the information they do, then everything they do is infallible.

Unfortunately, more information does not always mean better decisions. It does not even mean making the best decisions. If it did, we probably would have gotten out of the first round more than once in 15 years.

[Mindlessness]

While I agree with the general sentiment (about challenging decisions even w/o info), wikidoc is 10000000000000000x better than WebMD.

[Primer]

If we can't question coaches, doctors, or GMs because we don't have the information they do, then everything they do is infallible.

Unfortunately, more information does not always mean better decisions. It does not even mean making the best decisions. If it did, we probably would have gotten out of the first round more than once in 15 years.

I need to keep a list on posters who are adamantly defending the medical staff, so whenever they question any decisions by our coach or GM in the future, I can remind them that the coach and GM are infallible.

Hell, could even apply it to players. How dare you question DD's shot selection? You guys aren't in the film room with him and the coaches after each game, you aren't there in practice, you haven't played nearly as much basketball as DD, therefore anything negative you say about him is wrong.

[slaw]

I need to keep a list on posters who are adamantly defending the medical staff, so whenever they question any decisions by our coach or GM in the future, I can remind them that the coach and GM are infallible.

Hell, could even apply it to players. How dare you question DD's shot selection? You guys aren't in the film room with him and the coaches after each game, you aren't there in practice, you haven't played nearly as much basketball as DD, therefore anything negative you say about him is wrong.

You don't see a qualitative difference between watching a basketball play on tv and criticizing a bad shot and calling the entire medical staff of a billion dollar organization incompetent and negligent because you don't agree with how they have diagnosed and treated physical injuries when you have no knowledge of: what was diagnosed, what was prescribed, what all the options were, and the consequences of any of it?

Again, feel free to criticize all you want but there's a substantive difference between reasoned criticism based on evidence (i.e. Dan's argument that Patterson should be starting) and arguments based on supposition and guesswork (i.e. the nonsense in this thread).

[CNinja26]

You don't see a qualitative difference between watching a basketball play on tv and criticizing a bad shot and calling the entire medical staff of a billion dollar organization incompetent and negligent because you don't agree with how they have diagnosed and treated physical injuries when you have no knowledge of: what was diagnosed, what was prescribed, what all the options were, and the consequences of any of it?

Again, feel free to criticize all you want but there's a substantive difference between reasoned criticism based on evidence (i.e. Dan's argument that Patterson should be starting) and arguments based on supposition and guesswork (i.e. the nonsense in this thread).

Pretty much.

[S.R.]

Shit though guys, you think money + prestige + influence + insider positions = people who don't make mistakes or who are above and beyond questioning from the little people, the outsiders, those without access? I'd love to know what history books you've been reading.

There is some better nuance than that in a couple of the arguments, but that about sums up the gist of many of them.

I hope we'll get more info after the playoffs. We were similarly stonewalled last postseason and learned more in the summer.

[Axel]

I find it amazing that people still come on to the forum and criticize what other people choose to post about on the forum.

Whether you trust the decisions being made regarding Lowry or not, arguing the "you're not an expert/on the team" angle is pretty much the bullshit end of any conversation on here. We are all outsiders but we can all have opinions. It's kinda the point of the forum; have an opinion, share it, discussion ensues. If your entire argument is "your not an expert", then you probably don't need to post it because everyone is fairly aware of what they are.

[Apollo]

I would argue it's bullshit to keep on keeping on with this when no one has the info they need to feel so strongly that it was a mistake to keep playing him. Its one thing to say it but to bash everyone over the head with it after every poor shooting night? Ok, he's hurt but there's no way to tell whether that rest would have helped the situation. Its a debate where everyone loses. We'll never know. Put this on the shelf with the Pyramids and Stonehenge.

[Miekenstien]

I would argue it's bullshit to keep on keeping on with this when no one has the info they need to feel so strongly that it was a mistake to keep playing him. Its one thing to say it but to bash everyone over the head with it after every poor shooting night? Ok, he's hurt but there's no way to tell whether that rest would have helped the situation. Its a debate where everyone loses. We'll never know. Put this on the shelf with the Pyramids and Stonehenge.

aliens?