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Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

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  • #31
    There is a magic number right for Raptors to clinch playoffs. Once they do that I think they can rest Amir, Demar and Kyle and let Ross and JV run the show. I'm down for that.
    Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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    • #32
      I agree with CalgaryRapsFan in that I don't think playing either Ross or JV is going to necessarily mean we lose more. I've been impressed with what I have seen from both players over recent weeks, and I have thought that both of them deserved more minutes. JV does display some defensive troubles, but I wouldn't be so quick to yank him unless of course he is in foul trouble. Ross has been pretty good on both ends and it mystifies me that he isn't getting more minutes.

      And as far as JV is concerned, he isn't getting the "appropriate" opportunities offensively IMO. I believe he can score more than what we have seen, but he just isn't getting the touches to show what he can do. And I also believe that the more involved in the offense JV is, the better he will be on the defensive end. That being said, if Hayes needs to be inserted to deal with a good low post player that is schooling JV, then so be it, I have no issue with that.

      I also think that the development of Ross and JV can significantly improve the ceiling of this team as is. Both these guys will be great players IMO. They need to play more, but if they are total liabilities on the floor (which I don't think they are in general, but maybe in specific situations, i.e. is JV a good option for a small ball lineup or would you prefer Amir at the 5?) than yeah sit them if you think it will cost the game.

      Also, I'm not concerned about our draft position at all.

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      • #33
        MixxAOR wrote: View Post
        There is a magic number right for Raptors to clinch playoffs. Once they do that I think they can rest Amir, Demar and Kyle and let Ross and JV run the show. I'm down for that.
        I don't see that happening. Maybe for game 81 and 82 but I doubt you'll see much rest before that just because they clinch a top 8.

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        • #34
          Few thoughts:

          1. I agree with CagaryRapsFan to the extent that I am not entirely certain playing Ross more means more losses. Salmons hasn't been good in a month and a half.

          2. All I will say about JV is that if he is going good Casey does play him. The idea that Casey freezes out JV when he is playing well isn't true. During JV's great run at the end of January through the start of February, Casey was playing him 30+ minutes. He's dialed back his minutes recently because, frankly, JV hasn't been doing enough to justify more minutes.

          3. I am not sure playing guys more minutes necessarily equals development. Experience has some impact, obviously, but if a guy is struggling out there, does it benefit or hurt the player to continually stick with him? Also, even if I am wrong about this entirely, JV is still playing meaningful minutes for a playoff team. Does another 6 or 7 minutes make a material difference? Ross hasn't really "developed" so much in my eyes as he has finally been given an opportunity and seized it.

          4. As for the draft pick, the marginal benefit here seems negligible.

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          • #35
            Axel wrote: View Post
            1. This isn't about tanking, its about player development within a set of parameters (top 6 finish) to achieve long term goals.
            2. How does JV learn by sitting for extended periods? It's not like there's an assistant sitting with him, discussing what is happening on the court and how to read the play then react appropriately. He's sitting there, internalizing on his own. If he makes a mistake, you can sub him out, discuss it, then send him back in there.
            Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

            Assistant coach Frank Vogel will take over for the rest of the season. He has been a scout for the Los Angeles Lakers and Washington Wizards, and served as an assistant coach for O'Brien in Philadelphia and Boston.

            Bird was bothered by O'Brien's refusal to give more minutes to the team's young players. Bird said he'd like to see rookie Paul George play more, and he was frustrated with how little forward Tyler Hansbrough played early in the season. He felt that O'Brien's public berating of center Roy Hibbert damaged the 7-foot-2 center's confidence. Bird and Vogel agreed that Hibbert is an important piece of the team's future.

            Bird also said he would like to see rookie Lance Stephenson get onto the court. The second-round draft pick has not played this season.


            Many fans criticized O'Brien because he constantly changed lineups, at times leaving players inactive, then suddenly making them starters and sometimes leaving players who were performing well on the bench for long stretches.

            http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6074127
            In Vogel’s ten games as coach since being introduced as the interim on Jan. 30, the Pacers have won seven out of 10 contests, seen their scoring jump nearly 10 points a game and, most importantly, Roy Hibbert has reconnected with his early season self: the guy who backed you down, pinned you under the basket and did what any young center and most improved player candidate does: score, rebound, block and be happy.

            He’s averaging 17.8 points per game and 8.4 rebounds under Vogel, which is well over his 13.2 point and 7.8 rebound season average. Clearly things are coming back together, even getting better than they were.

            The best way to tell how the Pacers are doing is to ask how Roy Hibbert is doing. If Hibbert stays confident and continues to produce, the Pacers will be fine. But if his edge goes, so too does the team's chance at a spot in the playoffs for the first time in five seasons.

            http://www.examiner.com/article/on-o...uccess-failure

            Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.

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            • #36
              Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
              We're 8 games above .500 with 20 games left and tanking thread appears. Only raptor fans I tell you. Our we just so use to losing we enjoy it.

              The days of playing just cause your young and have "potential" is over in raptor land. Do you guys want JV to play so badly that your willing to have him pick up bad defensive tendencies like DD and Barney did? It's not easy to get out of those. Example DeMar DeRozan. He will only play D when his going on O. Thank you Triano.


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              This guy gets it.

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              It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.


                Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.

                That is an epic find, especially with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how well those young guys (Paul George, Lance Stephenson, Roy Hibbert) turned out. Larry Bird is a brilliant basketball mind.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

                  Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.
                  O'Brien had lost the team, though. The Pacers players basically gave up on him and the team was losing. The Raptors are playing their best ball since, well, maybe ever. Again, it's not like JV is getting jerked around. His minutes have been reduced because he has been playing poorly. I supect no one would like to get him back to his form of a few weeks ago more than Casey....

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                  • #39
                    slaw wrote: View Post
                    O'Brien had lost the team, though. The Pacers players basically gave up on him and the team was losing. The Raptors are playing their best ball since, well, maybe ever. Again, it's not like JV is getting jerked around. His minutes have been reduced because he has been playing poorly. I supect no one would like to get him back to his form of a few weeks ago more than Casey....
                    Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?


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                    @Chr1st1anL

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                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

                      Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.
                      I remember O'Brien taking Hibbert's starting job at one point and giving it to Solomon Jones (who was the definition of a scrub), and asking Hibbert to drop weight and develop a 3pt shot. All the while the Pacers were losing and most of the team seemed to hate the coach. And Paul George was collecting DNPs.

                      I just think that situation is far away from Casey and the Raptors.

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                      • #41
                        Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                        Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        After watching the career progression of Hibbert, how can you not?

                        If you want JV to be comfortable playing on a big stage next year and the years after that, then you need to acclimatize him. Why not now when the stakes are fairly low? We are going to make the playoffs anyway, so why not let him get used to the crunch time?
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • #42
                          slaw wrote: View Post
                          O'Brien had lost the team, though. The Pacers players basically gave up on him and the team was losing. The Raptors are playing their best ball since, well, maybe ever. Again, it's not like JV is getting jerked around. His minutes have been reduced because he has been playing poorly. I supect no one would like to get him back to his form of a few weeks ago more than Casey....
                          Fair enough.

                          However, when he plays well, like in the 3rd Q, should he be benched the remainder of the game.... well, 5 secs but you know what I mean.

                          How many games has he played decent in only to sit the 4th?

                          When JV was on that 10 game dominant streak, he made Nick Young look humble.

                          If Casey wants him to return to form boosting his confidence and rewarding good play should be priority #1 - even if it comes on the heels of bad play even within the same game.


                          Seriously - what message is sent when the 4th Q starts and CHUCK HAYES gets the nod?

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                          • #43
                            BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
                            I remember O'Brien taking Hibbert's starting job at one point and giving it to Solomon Jones (who was the definition of a scrub), and asking Hibbert to drop weight and develop a 3pt shot. All the while the Pacers were losing and most of the team seemed to hate the coach. And Paul George was collecting DNPs.

                            I just think that situation is far away from Casey and the Raptors.
                            You are right it is an extreme situation and in no way shape or form do I think Casey is on the level of O'Brien.

                            However going with vets/age over talent/youth is the point I'm raising here along with destroying guys confidence.

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                            • #44
                              Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                              Interestingly enough, " the Hibbert" is one of the things I find JV good at on defense..
                              He randomly turns himself around and his back ends up facing the dude driving on occasion (?????) but it seems to work mostly Lol
                              Last edited by BigCamB; Tue Mar 11, 2014, 02:42 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Fair enough.

                                However, when he plays well, like in the 3rd Q, should he be benched the remainder of the game.... well, 5 secs but you know what I mean.

                                How many games has he played decent in only to sit the 4th?

                                When JV was on that 10 game dominant streak, he made Nick Young look humble.

                                If Casey wants him to return to form boosting his confidence and rewarding good play should be priority #1 - even if it comes on the heels of bad play even within the same game.


                                Seriously - what message is sent when the 4th Q starts and CHUCK HAYES gets the nod?
                                That Chuck Hayes give the team a better chance at winning at that point and time. If that bothers him than he should be in the gym instead of ice fishing. JV has started every single NBA game his played. Drummond didn't even start most of last year. Whose the better player at the moment?


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                                @Chr1st1anL

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