Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

    Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.
    Don't know how I missed this post in the Hibbert discussion, but I deleted what I just posted since it was the same article. (Which also mentioned how Bird was unhappy not just with Hibbert's handling, but George's, Hansbrough's and Stephenson's as well)

    Anyway, want to re-post this part too, which isn't focusing on just youngsters.

    Many fans criticized O'Brien because he constantly changed lineups, at times leaving players inactive, then suddenly making them starters and sometimes leaving players who were performing well on the bench for long stretches.
    And add to it that development was emphasized along with success. It was not that Bird wanted to fire O'Brien and give up the season in favour of development, it's that he wanted greater success AND development. A different situation since Pacers were losing, but still a testament to having a long-term view with player development without giving up immediate priorities. Success can be affected, but it need not be sacrificed for development. And I also like that the guy making this decision is a guy who's had success at every level of the league (player, coach and exec) and is possibly one of the greatest basketball minds ever.

    From same espn story, just to emphasize success was still the plan

    Bird said he expects Vogel to lead the Pacers to the playoffs this season.
    I could easily see this exact situation playing out if the Raps hadn't managed to turn things around, as all the problems in the article are all pretty similar to what has been happening under Casey, including the inability to actually find stable defensive consistency. After a strong Dec post trade and great January, the D has slipped for the last month and a half.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Mar 12, 2014, 03:03 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • wallz
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Ok I want you to go to the gym and play some pickup ball. Play hard for 12 minutes. Sit for 10 and try it again. Another time play hard for 12 minutes then sit for 30 minutes and try it again.

    I guarantee you won't be able to play nearly as hard if you sit for that long, you will miss easy shots because your legs will be stiff.
    Looking at his game logs, he typically comes out around the 4 minute mark then comes back in around the 6 minute mark the next quarter. Those minutes don't seem that far-fetched to me but maybe I'm the only one

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Ok I want you to go to the gym and play some pickup ball. Play hard for 12 minutes. Sit for 10 and try it again. Another time play hard for 12 minutes then sit for 30 minutes and try it again.

    I guarantee you won't be able to play nearly as hard if you sit for that long, you will miss easy shots because your legs will be stiff.
    Not to mention the feel and flow of the game is lost.

    Plus when you're a young player still trying to figure shit out then you start thinking..... And thinking versus reacting is often dangerous for a guy knowing if he fucks up he is stapled to the bench.

    I find it ironic that some of the biggest DeRozan supporters seem to forget his development was unlimited minutes from year 2 onwards with some really awful stretches, particularly year 3, along the way.

    This all comes back to confidence for me and Casey is doing nothing with his in game decisions to get him out of the dumps.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    Off Topic but I probably just found the funniest video on the interent
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater
    That made my wife laugh so it was very funny.

    Leave a comment:


  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    wallz wrote: View Post
    The only time he sits taht long on the bench is in the 4th and he usually doesn't come back in afterwards anyway. I get what you're saying but I don't think he sits on the bench enough for it to be relevant
    Ok I want you to go to the gym and play some pickup ball. Play hard for 12 minutes. Sit for 10 and try it again. Another time play hard for 12 minutes then sit for 30 minutes and try it again.

    I guarantee you won't be able to play nearly as hard if you sit for that long, you will miss easy shots because your legs will be stiff.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    Nice topic.. I don't think anything can really be done as I expect Casey to continue with his method of coaching (giving odd minutes to Ross/JV throughout the playoffs). It's about winning not development at this stage but that's never really changed I don't think.

    I'd prefer more time with development and less time with trying to win since I don't see how the Raptors get passed the second round as the first round isn't guaranteed anyway. It's not like Salmons should be back next year in my opinion for example. The 17th vs 20th pick is not really an issue but I guess it would be a bright side to slipping to 6th.

    As for the JV vs Hayes argument I think its a matter of match up more than anything. JV would do better against KG or Noah due to their quickness (Hayes is not quick) but I can also see more time for Tyler in those cases. With Washington they have two bigs in Gortat and Nene. Need size to battle them and Hayes would do well - especially against Gortat to limit the offensive boards.

    Ross is better than Salmons on both sides of the floor. Don't think Salmons' "veteran IQ" does much either so would prefer to just have Ross out there for 40+ minutes assuming Ross doesn't have a few brain farts himself on the big stage.

    Basically what I'm saying is that the Raptors should give more minutes to JV and Ross at the cost of winning. I don't think it will happen though and even if it did the loss total would probably end up being negligible as compared to the win total anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • wallz
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying he needs to play MORE (28 minutes instead of his current 27), but rather he needs to not sit on the bench for giant stretches. You'd understand this if you read my post.

    It's hard to sit for half an hour on the bench then come in and play with cold legs...you get winded really easily doing so. When and How is very important. The consistency of minutes and rest will give JV's body a system to 'acclimate' to, so he doesn't get winded or gassed as easily.

    The only time he sits taht long on the bench is in the 4th and he usually doesn't come back in afterwards anyway. I get what you're saying but I don't think he sits on the bench enough for it to be relevant

    Leave a comment:


  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    wallz wrote: View Post
    He plays enough minutes for a 21 year old center to develop. Casey manages to play him a good amount of minutes AND play to win (which means he isn't going to play much in the 4th). I know game-time is important for experience but he's getting enough minutes, regardless of when and how. All I'm saying is that it is up to him to improve in the offseason, with a focus on his conditioning and strength. Don't blame the coach for his on-court shortcomings.
    I'm not saying he needs to play MORE (28 minutes instead of his current 27), but rather he needs to not sit on the bench for giant stretches. You'd understand this if you read my post.

    It's hard to sit for half an hour on the bench then come in and play with cold legs...you get winded really easily doing so. When and How is very important. The consistency of minutes and rest will give JV's body a system to 'acclimate' to, so he doesn't get winded or gassed as easily.

    Leave a comment:


  • wallz
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Game time is very difficult to duplicate and is very valuable. If you think practicing in a gym will give you the same amount of experience YOU ARE WRONG. Every coach or player development coach or trainer will tell you the same.



    Apparently you didn't read what I posted.

    Yes pull him if he is playing bad (3 strikes rule), sometimes Casey pulls him quickly, sometimes not. Lack of consistency. Though yes it is easy to tell when Casey is going to pull him. Sometimes other players make a mistake and JV gets pulled. Lack of consistency. The bigger issue is how long or short he has JV sit on the bench, which is bad. If JV plays bad, but knows he is going to get a second chance to correct his play at the 7 minute mark in the second, his confidence will go up.. Casey has no structure when he is going to put JV back in the game, and to me that is very unorganized and unstructured. Poor coaching.

    **if you add up the time (seeing as he really can only play 7 minutes before getting gassed anyways), he will still only average around 28 minutes a game anyhow, which is about right considering his physical conditioning right now.
    He plays enough minutes for a 21 year old center to develop. Casey manages to play him a good amount of minutes AND play to win (which means he isn't going to play much in the 4th). I know game-time is important for experience but he's getting enough minutes, regardless of when and how. All I'm saying is that it is up to him to improve in the offseason, with a focus on his conditioning and strength. Don't blame the coach for his on-court shortcomings.

    Leave a comment:


  • BobLoblaw
    replied
    4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    Off Topic but I probably just found the funniest video on the interent
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater
    rofl.. poor woman.

    Leave a comment:


  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    wallz wrote: View Post
    First bold: Says who? Not everyone develops the same way. There are plenty of guys that learned their way sitting on the bench (look at hibbert's first two years, plus he was older than JV).
    Game time is very difficult to duplicate and is very valuable. If you think practicing in a gym will give you the same amount of experience YOU ARE WRONG. Every coach or player development coach or trainer will tell you the same.

    wallz wrote: View Post
    Second: He pulls Jonas when he's playing bad; not rebounding, not running the floor hard, poor defence, etc. Just from the eye test, I can tell when Casey's going to bench him. There's nothing wrong with pulling a youngster off the floor and letting him know what he's doing wrong. Yet that makes him a bad coach because it doesn't 'look' organized?

    Besides, 27 minutes a game for a 21 year old center that is nowhere near where he needs to be physically (although I'm sure he will get there eventually) is fine with me, and I'm sure the other 29 NBA coaches wouldn't handle the situation much different
    Apparently you didn't read what I posted.

    Yes pull him if he is playing bad (3 strikes rule), sometimes Casey pulls him quickly, sometimes not. Lack of consistency. Though yes it is easy to tell when Casey is going to pull him. Sometimes other players make a mistake and JV gets pulled. Lack of consistency. The bigger issue is how long or short he has JV sit on the bench, which is bad. If JV plays bad, but knows he is going to get a second chance to correct his play at the 7 minute mark in the second, his confidence will go up.. Casey has no structure when he is going to put JV back in the game, and to me that is very unorganized and unstructured. Poor coaching.

    **if you add up the time (seeing as he really can only play 7 minutes before getting gassed anyways), he will still only average around 28 minutes a game anyhow, which is about right considering his physical conditioning right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • wallz
    replied
    BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Your post wasn't off topic, I meant that my thoughts on FIBA, Duncan, Hibbert etc were going to be a bit off topic.
    Ohh, gotcha!

    Leave a comment:


  • MACK11
    replied
    Off Topic but I probably just found the funniest video on the interent
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

    Leave a comment:


  • wallz
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post


    With the lack of practice time (union rules), it is difficult to get the hours outside of game time to improve that much.

    Also consider that game time is worth thousands of hours of practice.

    JV needs to get some consistent minutes. This means that he should start, if he plays well, play him until he starts to get fatigued, if he is playing poorly, 3 strikes and he is out and you explain to him WHY he is on the bench. He should then sit until the 7 minute mark in the second (regardless of how he is playing, this makes for consistency), if he is playing well he plays out the half, 3 strikes rule again if playing poorly. Rinse and repeat for the second half. This ensures consistency AND accountability, and demands a higher level of awareness and play from the players, without hampering a players confidence because they know if they are sitting on the bench, it is because they screwed up. As a coach you need to set a specific set of rules and stick to them, this allows the players and the coach to be on the same level. Casey has no organized set of rules that I can see...one reason why he is a bad coach
    First bold: Says who? Not everyone develops the same way. There are plenty of guys that learned their way sitting on the bench (look at hibbert's first two years, plus he was older than JV).

    Second: He pulls Jonas when he's playing bad; not rebounding, not running the floor hard, poor defence, etc. Just from the eye test, I can tell when Casey's going to bench him. There's nothing wrong with pulling a youngster off the floor and letting him know what he's doing wrong. Yet that makes him a bad coach because it doesn't 'look' organized?

    Besides, 27 minutes a game for a 21 year old center that is nowhere near where he needs to be physically (although I'm sure he will get there eventually) is fine with me, and I'm sure the other 29 NBA coaches wouldn't handle the situation much different

    Leave a comment:


  • BobLoblaw
    replied
    wallz wrote: View Post
    That's basically what I meant. And it's not really off topic if the point of the thread is whether or not he should be getting more minutes for development
    Your post wasn't off topic, I meant that my thoughts on FIBA, Duncan, Hibbert etc were going to be a bit off topic.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X