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Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

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  • #91
    Scraptor wrote: View Post
    In order to learn from mistakes you have to understand that they are not the end of the world. You have to dust yourself off and try again. What I see from Val when he makes mistakes is serious dejection and embarrassment. This is not good. It leads to tentative play and a slowing down/overthinking for fear of making mistakes instead of playing by instinct.
    Just another testament to the obvious: Casey is horrible when it comes to player development. JV plays tentatively because he knows if he makes a mistake, he'll get taken out. He's regularly the first starter taken out of the game.

    special1 wrote: View Post
    Guys....If JV is as fragile as half of you make him out to be, then i promise you he will not turn out to be anything special in this league. Page after page i read how "his confidence is low.....poor guy." This is the NBA!....it's not kindergarten. One night JV is going up against Pekovic, the next night its Gasol, then Howard, then Hibbert, then Noah, then Vujicic, then Chandler, then Jefferson, then Jordan......you see the Center position is a man's position.
    He's fragile because of DC. Your confidence would be low too if your minutes were cut regardless of whether your playing well or not.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    • #92
      special1 wrote: View Post
      WOW .... after reading all these posts i can't help but think that half the fans on here think they know more about development than the people who are actually paid to do it.

      Guys....If JV is as fragile as half of you make him out to be, then i promise you he will not turn out to be anything special in this league. Page after page i read how "his confidence is low.....poor guy." This is the NBA!....it's not kindergarten. One night JV is going up against Pekovic, the next night its Gasol, then Howard, then Hibbert, then Noah, then Vujicic, then Chandler, then Jefferson, then Jordan......you see the Center position is a man's position.

      You should all temper your expectations with regards to JV. I think he gets playing time according to his play (which is how it should be). He's a major part of this team (started every game as a Raptor from since i can remember). Does he have a ways to go?? YES!....he's a 21 year old sophmore center going up against the biggest, toughest players in the NBA. I don't see this travesty that others see.....then again i don't have a bias for JV. To me, JV is just one of the many important players on this team.
      isaacthompson wrote: View Post
      Just another testament to the obvious: Casey is horrible when it comes to player development. JV plays tentatively because he knows if he makes a mistake, he'll get taken out. He's regularly the first starter taken out of the game.



      He's fragile because of DC. Your confidence would be low too if your minutes were cut regardless of whether your playing well or not.
      special1 please read isaacthompson's post

      I don't think I would be as biased and firm on my opinion of how Casey is improperly handling Jonas IF it was just Jonas that is having troubles.

      However, Casey has miss handled the development of:

      J. Johnson
      Bayless
      Davis
      Ross
      Val

      (ie: every young guy we have had in the past 3 years....)

      I very much doubt that all those guys have the same problems and have trouble getting confident when they have all been miss-treated with sporadic playing times and random benching's, I think that the issue lies in Casey's inability to properly use young guys and his infatuation with vets.

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      • #93

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        • #94
          vino wrote: View Post
          Good point, let’s re-visit in a few weeks when there are 4-5 games left.
          which misses the point. Garbage games once the standings are set are much like garbage minutes. Games like the last one versus Brooklyn are the most valuable as they are the crunch time, pressure cooker moments that best reflect the playoffs.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #95
            OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
            J. Johnson
            Bayless
            Davis
            Ross
            Val

            (ie: every young guy we have had in the past 3 years....)

            I very much doubt that all those guys have the same problems and have trouble getting confident when they have all been miss-treated with sporadic playing times and random benching's, I think that the issue lies in Casey's inability to properly use young guys and his infatuation with vets.
            Don't really agree with this at all. James Johnson has played for 4 teams and his biggest role and opportunity was given to him in Toronto. Bayless has played for 5 teams now and, again, his best years and biggest opportunity were in Toronto. Ditto for Ed Davis who plays 10 minutes less a game in Memphis.

            Ross has improved his contribution significantly over last year and has become a key to the team's success. Valanciuanas hasn't been great but it's mostly been a function of poor shooting vs. last year as opposed to any fundamental issues. Meanwhile, Derozan, Lowry and Amir Johnson have all had career years under Casey.

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            • #96
              Axel wrote: View Post
              which misses the point. Garbage games once the standings are set are much like garbage minutes. Games like the last one versus Brooklyn are the most valuable as they are the crunch time, pressure cooker moments that best reflect the playoffs.
              I highly doubt the last 4 or 5 games of the year will be meaningless. They will likely decide the division and the playoff standings 3 through 8....

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              • #97
                slaw wrote: View Post
                Don't really agree with this at all. James Johnson has played for 4 teams and his biggest role and opportunity was given to him in Toronto. Bayless has played for 5 teams now and, again, his best years and biggest opportunity were in Toronto. Ditto for Ed Davis who plays 10 minutes less a game in Memphis.

                Ross has improved his contribution significantly over last year and has become a key to the team's success. Valanciuanas hasn't been great but it's mostly been a function of poor shooting vs. last year as opposed to any fundamental issues. Meanwhile, Derozan, Lowry and Amir Johnson have all had career years under Casey.
                The outcomes are now determined and, sure, those players (JJ, Bayless, ED) haven't quite panned out. However when they played for Toronto their minutes were all over the place - especially Davis. But the bigger point was those two teams/years/seasons the Raptors sucked donkey balls. Losing teams only have the future to work with. I feel confident in saying that if Davis had stayed he still would have shown flashes and he'd be entering FA not knowing what the team has.

                Regarding your last sentence, I think it is fairly obvious - again my opinion - that Casey has favourites and guys he feels more comfortable with. That is only normal. However what is unusual is that his preferences seem to be older guys - even if those older guys are still relatively young. And then with Lowry, he was more comfortable with Calderon until, well we know that story.

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                • #98
                  KeonClark wrote: View Post
                  This guy gets it.

                  Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk
                  Not really. This topic has nothing to do with tanking.

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                  • #99
                    Jonas needs to find his smile. (Heartbreak kid!!!)
                    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                    • slaw wrote: View Post
                      I highly doubt the last 4 or 5 games of the year will be meaningless. They will likely decide the division and the playoff standings 3 through 8....
                      If that is the case then why bother waiting until the last 2 weeks? Why not start now to maximize the development time? Hence the OP.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • slaw wrote: View Post
                        Don't really agree with this at all. James Johnson has played for 4 teams and his biggest role and opportunity was given to him in Toronto. Bayless has played for 5 teams now and, again, his best years and biggest opportunity were in Toronto. Ditto for Ed Davis who plays 10 minutes less a game in Memphis.

                        Ross has improved his contribution significantly over last year and has become a key to the team's success. Valanciuanas hasn't been great but it's mostly been a function of poor shooting vs. last year as opposed to any fundamental issues. Meanwhile, Derozan, Lowry and Amir Johnson have all had career years under Casey.
                        You beat me to it. Casey has plenty of faults but stopping James Johnson and Jarred Bayless from spreading their wings is not one of them. Yes, the minutes for those guys were all over the place but so was their play, hence JJ/Bayless being relegated to journeyman status within 5 years of being in the league.

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                        • Fully wrote: View Post
                          You beat me to it. Casey has plenty of faults but stopping James Johnson and Jarred Bayless from spreading their wings is not one of them. Yes, the minutes for those guys were all over the place but so was their play, hence JJ/Bayless being relegated to journeyman status within 5 years of being in the league.
                          Agreed. I don't think running them out there and letting them play through everything would have made them more effective basketball players. Heck, for all we know, Casey could have helped develop them better than most coaches could have

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                          • wallz wrote: View Post
                            Agreed. I don't think running them out there and letting them play through everything would have made them more effective basketball players. Heck, for all we know, Casey could have helped develop them better than most coaches could have
                            Someone already mentioned it above but Johnson and Bayless both experienced arguably their greatest personal success in Toronto under Casey.

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                            • Not all players develop the same. Some (like DeRozan) may improve from being force-fed minutes, other guys might develop better if they're yanked every time they screw up.

                              Look at the Spurs for example. Parker basically got consistent minutes from day 1, while Manu's were always sporadic and he could be sat at any time if he was making mistakes. I'm pretty sure both of those guys turned out ok.

                              I don't think anyone here knows more about player development than our coaching staff. Let's let Casey and co. handle it (not like we have a choice anyway).

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                              • imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                                Not all players develop the same. Some (like DeRozan) may improve from being force-fed minutes, other guys might develop better if they're yanked every time they screw up.

                                Look at the Spurs for example. Parker basically got consistent minutes from day 1, while Manu's were always sporadic and he could be sat at any time if he was making mistakes. I'm pretty sure both of those guys turned out ok.

                                I don't think anyone here knows more about player development than our coaching staff. Let's let Casey and co. handle it (not like we have a choice anyway).
                                Don't think the Spurs players are overly relevant though. Parker joined as a rookie PG on a team that didn't really have any PG options on the roster (Antonio Daniels - combo guard being the other to start at PG that year) as Avery Johnson retired before this season. Manu joined a team (who won 60 games that year) that already had a (pre-crazy) 24 year old Stephen Jackson, 31 year old Bruce Bowen and veteran 33 year old Steve Smith at the SG/SF position. Considering the Spurs were already Championship contenders the day before Manu joined the team (as a 2nd round pick), the expectation for playing time is significantly different; so Manu receiving 20 mins per game is actually pretty good.

                                The Raps are not winning 60 games. The Raps are not Championship contenders. The Raps weren't expected to even be contending for the division, so we are playing with house money at this point. We have 2 high lottery picks (top 10) that lose minutes to a 34 yr old journeyman (who can be bought up before July for $1M and will likely be gone next year) shooting 37% FG% and a 30 year old journeyman center who is shorter than our starting SG.

                                How is that not a problem?

                                As for the bold, are you certain? Coaches in the NBA are brilliant basketball minds, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Casey sure knows how to coach a defence, but there isn't much evidence to suggest that he is very capable at player development. Following blindly, without questioning motives and decisions, isn't a very good thing to do. If you want to be a lemming and follow the leader off the cliff, then have at it. But decision makers should always be questioned to ensure that they are staying vigilant and making the best choices for all.

                                We all want the same thing here, a championship team. I happen to have an opinion on ways to get there and joined a forum to share and discuss it. Since we are on page 6, I'd say lots of people don't want to join the lemming stampede.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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