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Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

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  • Axel
    replied
    Jclaw wrote: View Post
    I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. JV and Ross are getting plenty of experience even if vetrans are favoured later in the game. As astutely pointed out by the wise Matty D in last night's broadcast, of all top teams in competition, I think the raps are the only one starting and featuring 2 second year players. These guys are still at the beginning of their development, not at the point where they are in peak regular season form and now need the playoff drive to push them on to better things. Home court in the playoffs, playing as low a seed as you can (although I admit that it is a bit murky now).....that will be the electric dynamic of the playoffs that those guys can enjoy and spend the rest of their development getting back to.
    Crunch time minutes are different than other minutes in much the same way, playoff games are different than regular season. A young guy has to learn how to succeed in the pressure. Giving these valuable minutes to Salmons & Hayes means that Ross and JV aren't getting that experience.

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  • Axel
    replied
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    First, I'm not entirely convinced that playing JV & Ross more minutes ahead of Hansborough/Hayes & Salmons/Fields/Novak would even result in more losses. DC has a short leash for young players (rightfully so, quite often) and prefers veterans he can rely on, but I have yet to see any of those veteran scrubs really have any positive impact on the ultimate outcome of any games (aside from Hansborough in short bursts). I've never had an issue with DC yanking the young players out after making a boneheaded play, but I completely disagree with them being left to rot on the bench for long stretches (or never getting back in). The vets often get winded playing extended minutes and the youngsters are rusty and out of the flow of the game if/when they do get back in, which I've often observed to have a double negative impact.

    Second, I completely agree with taking the long view for this team. The Raptors aren't winning the championship this season and likely have no shot at making it through the second round. Regardless of which team (Chicago, Brooklyn, Washington) they play or who has home-court advantage, I don't see the Raptors' chances of winning a 1st round series changing very much. Any series will be an entertaining, hard-fought series, with Toronto having a good chance of winning it. Many anti-tankers were arguing that this season should be all about getting playoff experience for the young players, which made sense. I'm lost as to why that goal is suddenly taking a backseat to winning the division? True experience is gained by being on the court in crunch time and in playoff games (or playoff like games down the stretch). Let the youngsters play & develop, while possibly improving draft positioning (even 3 spots could drastically improve the quality of player added to the core, or could enhance the value of the Raps' own pick for facilitating a trade up in the draft). Seems like a win-win to me, that would have minimal impact on playoff outcomes.

    Third, if this team is building for the future, playing the youngsters more in meaningful situations now could very well improve the team's chances for future success. JV & Ross are likely going to be key contributors for the Raptors for years to come, while it's unlikely any of those scrubs are going to be around longer than their contract (if that).
    This is exactly the train of thought that led to me OP.

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  • Jclaw
    replied
    I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. JV and Ross are getting plenty of experience even if vetrans are favoured later in the game. As astutely pointed out by the wise Matty D in last night's broadcast, of all top teams in competition, I think the raps are the only one starting and featuring 2 second year players. These guys are still at the beginning of their development, not at the point where they are in peak regular season form and now need the playoff drive to push them on to better things. Home court in the playoffs, playing as low a seed as you can (although I admit that it is a bit murky now).....that will be the electric dynamic of the playoffs that those guys can enjoy and spend the rest of their development getting back to.

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  • BigCamB
    replied
    Playing Ross more minutes would not give the raptors a lower seed, though

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  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    First, I'm not entirely convinced that playing JV & Ross more minutes ahead of Hansborough/Hayes & Salmons/Fields/Novak would even result in more losses. DC has a short leash for young players (rightfully so, quite often) and prefers veterans he can rely on, but I have yet to see any of those veteran scrubs really have any positive impact on the ultimate outcome of any games (aside from Hansborough in short bursts). I've never had an issue with DC yanking the young players out after making a boneheaded play, but I completely disagree with them being left to rot on the bench for long stretches (or never getting back in). The vets often get winded playing extended minutes and the youngsters are rusty and out of the flow of the game if/when they do get back in, which I've often observed to have a double negative impact.

    Second, I completely agree with taking the long view for this team. The Raptors aren't winning the championship this season and likely have no shot at making it through the second round. Regardless of which team (Chicago, Brooklyn, Washington) they play or who has home-court advantage, I don't see the Raptors' chances of winning a 1st round series changing very much. Any series will be an entertaining, hard-fought series, with Toronto having a good chance of winning it. Many anti-tankers were arguing that this season should be all about getting playoff experience for the young players, which made sense. I'm lost as to why that goal is suddenly taking a backseat to winning the division? True experience is gained by being on the court in crunch time and in playoff games (or playoff like games down the stretch). Let the youngsters play & develop, while possibly improving draft positioning (even 3 spots could drastically improve the quality of player added to the core, or could enhance the value of the Raps' own pick for facilitating a trade up in the draft). Seems like a win-win to me, that would have minimal impact on playoff outcomes.

    Third, if this team is building for the future, playing the youngsters more in meaningful situations now could very well improve the team's chances for future success. JV & Ross are likely going to be key contributors for the Raptors for years to come, while it's unlikely any of those scrubs are going to be around longer than their contract (if that).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Mar 11, 2014, 12:56 PM.

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  • Axel
    replied
    Letter N wrote: View Post
    6th means we play Bulls in first round. Which means we watch 2nd round from home rather than at the ACC. I don't like 6th.
    Bulls aren't guaranteed 3rd. 3 games is all that separates these 4 teams with 20 games to go. Besides, Bulls without Deng and Rose are going to really struggle to score in a best of 7 series. Lowry vs Augustin for 7 games, I'll take my chances.

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  • Letter N
    replied
    6th means we play Bulls in first round. Which means we watch 2nd round from home rather than at the ACC. I don't like 6th.

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  • Axel
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think the reality of the situation is that, at this point in the season, Casey is playing to win. After all, he might be unemployed next season. It's in his best interest to use these final 20 games to set his 9-man rotation in stone (baring injuries), and stick with it. Whether that rotation heavily relies on Ross and Jonas, only Casey knows for sure. But I would find it hard to believe that Casey's thinking deep enough to consider selling playoff seeding in exchange for development time.
    Very true, Casey's situation hinders the amount of long-term thinking that would best serve this franchise, imo. If the option was given to Masai, what would he choose? What if Casey had a 3 year extension in place, would that change his position?

    Of course this is all hypothetical. It's not like Casey is going to read RR and say, "you're right, let's play JV and Ross more" ~ which would simultaneously make him the most awesome and worst coach ever.

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Which gets accomplished regardless of the seed. So why not double-up and get the extra development time?
    I think the reality of the situation is that, at this point in the season, Casey is playing to win. After all, he might be unemployed next season. It's in his best interest to use these final 20 games to set his 9-man rotation in stone (baring injuries), and stick with it. Whether that rotation heavily relies on Ross and Jonas, only Casey knows for sure. But I would find it hard to believe that Casey's thinking deep enough to consider selling playoff seeding in exchange for development time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The other school of thought is that having Ross and Jonas experience the playoffs at all (even in a limited capacity) would serve them well for the future.
    Which gets accomplished regardless of the seed. So why not double-up and get the extra development time?

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Draft is only a bonus, the main point is JV and Ross need to play crunch time minutes to develop and ultimately help this team.
    The other school of thought is that having Ross and Jonas experience the playoffs at all (even in a limited capacity) would serve them well for the future.

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  • Axel
    replied
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    No more tanking please. I'm not even going to justify the "joy" of drafting 17 instead of 20 with a reply. Straight ridiculous
    Draft is only a bonus, the main point is JV and Ross need to play crunch time minutes to develop and ultimately help this team.

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  • Axel
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Perhaps....as long as they avoid reading all the media headlines claiming that the division title was ours to lose, and we crashed and burned during the final leg of the season
    More fuel for the fire?

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  • KeonClark
    replied
    No more tanking please. I'm not even going to justify the "joy" of drafting 17 instead of 20 with a reply. Straight ridiculous

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Most years, I'd say that this is a potential issue, but this year, I'm not so sure. This is a team that seems to relish in the idea of being under-appreciated and under-estimated. Wouldn't the 5th or 6th slot better serve that mentality? Especially since it is the same 3 teams that the Raps would play in the 1st round.
    Perhaps....as long as they avoid reading all the media headlines claiming that the division title was ours to lose, and we crashed and burned during the final leg of the season

    Leave a comment:

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