Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

[special1]

WOW .... after reading all these posts i can't help but think that half the fans on here think they know more about development than the people who are actually paid to do it.

Guys....If JV is as fragile as half of you make him out to be, then i promise you he will not turn out to be anything special in this league. Page after page i read how "his confidence is low.....poor guy." This is the NBA!....it's not kindergarten. One night JV is going up against Pekovic, the next night its Gasol, then Howard, then Hibbert, then Noah, then Vujicic, then Chandler, then Jefferson, then Jordan......you see the Center position is a man's position.

You should all temper your expectations with regards to JV. I think he gets playing time according to his play (which is how it should be). He's a major part of this team (started every game as a Raptor from since i can remember). Does he have a ways to go?? YES!....he's a 21 year old sophmore center going up against the biggest, toughest players in the NBA. I don't see this travesty that others see.....then again i don't have a bias for JV. To me, JV is just one of the many important players on this team.

[Raptor Jesus]

Yes, I should have included this in my post. It is annoying to see Ross play hard and do 10 things extremely well, and 1 thing wrong only to get subbed out, then see Salmons do nothing but mediocrity and a couple things wrong and Casey rides him like a porn star.



Well said. This could also help explain why we see him do well only when he starts well, and doesn't get that dejection from heading to the bench early and has some temporary confidence....which is later squashed in the second because his teammates don't get him a single shot in the second quarter

If memory serves, he was in his own head talking to him self and looking dejected in Monday's game in the Bronx. He was being out played by Plumlee and a step slow helping and completely missed a rotation leading to wide open layup. Casey called a time out and Jack remarked he was talking to himeself. When Chuck Hayes grabbed him. I don't pretend to know what was said, or that it wasn't a combination the timeout/coaching or myriad other factors, that led him to put it back together in his limited minutes and from recollection get a huge statement dunk later in the quarter.

6 - 10 more minutes a game will put him on par with our backcourt for mpg. Considering he's never played the minutes he is currently ever in his NBA career, why is giving more minutes going to lead to the nebulous outcomes of 'development', 'understanding'.

Some are wont to give him additional touches, I suggest that tugs and pulls at the game plan and success they have been seeing from it. Which I suggest would hurt the team chemistry and have teammates questioning their importance, and their contribution. Which is flatly a hop skip and a jump from the shit teams that this organization has put on the floor over the years. Watching DD get unlimited minutes while surrounded with 50 faces that no longer matter to this organization is an outlier not the norm, and could very well be the reason he took 5 season to put it together.

JV's biggest problems, are his inherent physical limitations, which he's attempting to surpass through hard work, coupled with his young NBA mind up against NBA competition, and his relentless pursuit of the expectation he has put on him and set for himself.

The game is only going to speed up from here on out. Doubly so if this is a playoff year. Let's leave the professionals, that brought us here, to keep doing what they're doing.

[OldSkoolCool]

Good post. In agreement. The problem with DC is the rules are not the same for everyone.

Yes, I should have included this in my post. It is annoying to see Ross play hard and do 10 things extremely well, and 1 thing wrong only to get subbed out, then see Salmons do nothing but mediocrity and a couple things wrong and Casey rides him like a porn star.

I have a real problem with the development of our sophomores. It's a pattern that traces back to Ed Davis and if you ask Twolves fans even farther back.

In order to learn from mistakes you have to understand that they are not the end of the world. You have to dust yourself off and try again. What I see from Val when he makes mistakes is serious dejection and embarrassment. This is not good. It leads to tentative play and a slowing down/overthinking for fear of making mistakes instead of playing by instinct.

That natural instinct is what I see getting messed up this year. It's inherently tied to his confidence.

Well said. This could also help explain why we see him do well only when he starts well, and doesn't get that dejection from heading to the bench early and has some temporary confidence....which is later squashed in the second because his teammates don't get him a single shot in the second quarter

[unknown]

Although it is highly unlikely, the Pacers and Heat are not absolute locks to make the second round. That's why they play the games.

If we switch Raps and Nets in the standings right now, and Raps win the first round series, we don't have home advantage against the winner of the 4-5 matchup if either the Pacers or Heat lose.

Again, highly unlikely, but you know what they say about the best laid plans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbn72J8ass4

Higher seed the better. Playoff success on a team is just as important for our sophs.

[Scraptor]

I have a real problem with the development of our sophomores. It's a pattern that traces back to Ed Davis and if you ask Twolves fans even farther back.

In order to learn from mistakes you have to understand that they are not the end of the world. You have to dust yourself off and try again. What I see from Val when he makes mistakes is serious dejection and embarrassment. This is not good. It leads to tentative play and a slowing down/overthinking for fear of making mistakes instead of playing by instinct.

That natural instinct is what I see getting messed up this year. It's inherently tied to his confidence.

I agree with Axel and Matt but I think unfortunately it's too late to change the season's trajectory. The good thing about winning culture is that JV does care about making mistakes, instead of being purely indifferent, but if he were to struggle out there while the team stsrts losing I fear it might further erode his already fragile confidence. It would be a different story if we'd given him 30+ minutes a night and 12+ shots and said listen, don't worry about making mistakes, we just want you to try things out and figure out what works. But that ship has sailed.

It's less of a problem with Ross, who is not gunshy about launching the three, but he also needs to work on other parts of his game. More than half his shots are threes and 87% are jumpers. I don't care if he fumbles the ball; he's never going to learn how to attack the basket unless he is given opportunities and instructions to do so. It's why I wonder if he should get more minutes to create with the second unit, though Vasquez is such a rockpounder I don't know if that would help.

[Axel]

Good points.

I would only emphasize what is the end goal?

If the end goal is to be a contender you develop now and if you lose a game or two along the way it is the cost of striving for eventual greatness.

The reality is as great a surprise this year has been, they are not a contender.

Good line. Should have used that in the OP

[mcHAPPY]

I think the success of this years team makes these situations difficult to compare. The OP's question was sort of risk vs. reward. Risk winning games for the reward of improved development of our sophomores. With Derozan there was little to no risk with giving him all those minutes and letting him work through the mistakes, because those Raptors teams were going to be bad whether or not he played a lot of minutes. Neither JV or Ross are in the same (or even a similar) situation to Derozan's 2nd year.

Good points.

I would only emphasize what is the end goal?

If the end goal is to be a contender you develop now and if you lose a game or two along the way it is the cost of striving for eventual greatness.

The reality is as great a surprise this year has been, they are not a contender.

[JawsGT]

Good points. The only risk with Demar and his long leash was that he could develop some bad habits that would be very difficult to correct down the road. Whether that happened or not is an entirely different discussion.

Casey obviously doesn't want to allow bad habits (especially defensively) to foster, but there is a better balance that can achieve both the teaching aspect and the production aspect. You don't need to sit a player for the entire quarter to teach them how they missed their assignment. That's my biggest beef with Casey at this point.

I agree with all that. I really don't like our sophomores sitting for extended minutes. There have been games where it was clearly justified, but for the most part I think they should be getting consistent minutes.

[Axel]

I think the success of this years team makes these situations difficult to compare. The OP's question was sort of risk vs. reward. Risk winning games for the reward of improved development of our sophomores. With Derozan there was little to no risk with giving him all those minutes and letting him work through the mistakes, because those Raptors teams were going to be bad whether or not he played a lot of minutes. Neither JV or Ross are in the same (or even a similar) situation to Derozan's 2nd year.

Good points. The only risk with Demar and his long leash was that he could develop some bad habits that would be very difficult to correct down the road. Whether that happened or not is an entirely different discussion.

Casey obviously doesn't want to allow bad habits (especially defensively) to foster, but there is a better balance that can achieve both the teaching aspect and the production aspect. You don't need to sit a player for the entire quarter to teach them how they missed their assignment. That's my biggest beef with Casey at this point.

[JawsGT]

I find it ironic that some of the biggest DeRozan supporters seem to forget his development was unlimited minutes from year 2 onwards with some really awful stretches, particularly year 3, along the way.

I think the success of this years team makes these situations difficult to compare. The OP's question was sort of risk vs. reward. Risk winning games for the reward of improved development of our sophomores. With Derozan there was little to no risk with giving him all those minutes and letting him work through the mistakes, because those Raptors teams were going to be bad whether or not he played a lot of minutes. Neither JV or Ross are in the same (or even a similar) situation to Derozan's 2nd year.

[Axel]

I don't even see how giving Ross/JV more minutes would cause us to drop from 3rd to 6th.

Aren't they better than Salmons/Hayes/Hansbrough/etc?

Ask Casey and the people who constantly call for JV to sit if he makes a mistake.

Perfect example of the JV minutes issue was the Washington Triple OT game, where JV sat for an hour (real time) before getting insert in the 2nd OT (no 4th Q minutes). He was obviously out of sync, so struggled a bit then got sat in favor of Hansbrough for the 3rd OT, after being passed over for John Salmons in the first OT when Amir (or Patterson - can't remember which) fouled out.

The point isn't to try to drop from 3rd to 6th, but rather not worry about being 3rd vs 6th and focus on developing JV and Ross even if it means dropping a few seeds in the East.

[imanshumpert]

I don't even see how giving Ross/JV more minutes would cause us to drop from 3rd to 6th.

Aren't they better than Salmons/Hayes/Hansbrough/etc?

[psrs1]

Actually with how quickly JV has learned the rule of verticality I am excited with his ability to learn the nuances quicker than Hibbert (who took until year 5 before he became a force)



I think if Casey wants to win in the playoffs, we need a confident, assertive JV because when he is going he demands a lot of attention and teams have a hard time stopping him



No he doesn't. The only time I like Chuck Hayes is vs Cousins or Al Jefferson. The rest of the time JV is better due to his much superior rebounding and lane intimidation. When Hayes is on the floor, people tend to forget that the other team can drive in and get whatever because they know Hayes isn't going to block them. With JV there is much more lane intimidation



With the lack of practice time (union rules), it is difficult to get the hours outside of game time to improve that much.

Also consider that game time is worth thousands of hours of practice.

JV needs to get some consistent minutes. This means that he should start, if he plays well, play him until he starts to get fatigued, if he is playing poorly, 3 strikes and he is out and you explain to him WHY he is on the bench. He should then sit until the 7 minute mark in the second (regardless of how he is playing, this makes for consistency), if he is playing well he plays out the half, 3 strikes rule again if playing poorly. Rinse and repeat for the second half. This ensures consistency AND accountability, and demands a higher level of awareness and play from the players, without hampering a players confidence because they know if they are sitting on the bench, it is because they screwed up. As a coach you need to set a specific set of rules and stick to them, this allows the players and the coach to be on the same level. Casey has no organized set of rules that I can see...one reason why he is a bad coach

Good post. In agreement. The problem with DC is the rules are not the same for everyone.

[psrs1]

I would argue that playing Ross and JV may help win now and in the future vs Hayes and Salmons. The ceiling for JV and TR is much higher.

[Raptor Jesus]

If JV's playing half the minutes, he's sitting the other half. That's not only by definition true, it's true for every other athlete in the NBA. What makes him so special? Why change what's worked so well for so many?

JV isn't you or your buddies playing pick up in the school yard. JV and the scores of MLSE employees around him endeavour to ensure he isn't 'stiff' physically from his lifting sessions, recovery, travel, among countless other intangibles.
Numberless employees log minutes, repetitions, load, timing, duration, peak, and countless other stats to discern optimal programs for each of their athletes based on countless hours of homework. They consider muscle mass and composition, nutrition plans to meet the training staffs goals for gains while playing the most minutes of his career.

Mentally, well, that's a different story. I like to believe his direct supervisors and his team mates, have at least the best of intentions, if not vested interest in knowing their team mate and understanding how he best responds to adversity and acting accordingly. Like yanking him, or playing him or whatever the situation calls for.

To OP, 3 draft slots and 3 vs 4 first round home games are not worth adding approximately 2 hours more floor time.