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Toronto Raptors VS Boston Celtics: Friday March 28th 2014 7:00 PM ET

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  • One could also argue that volume scoring is NOT needed, but efficient scoring.

    Looking at the top 7 teams (SAS, OKC, LAC, IND, MIA, HOU, GSW) the top scorer on each team has a FG% of 49% or higher on 4 of those teams. There are 2 teams where the top scorer shoots above 46% (Harden, Curry, the bottom 2 W/L on that list)). Then Indiana (with the very struggling George) at 36%. Then the Raps leading scorer is DD at 43% (which is in the bottom half of the league)

    I don't care about quantity, I'm not an american cheese burger factory, I want quality.

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    • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
      First off... statements like "flipping him to someone else for anything" drive me absolutely bananas.
      Its such a ridiculous thing to say that I'm not even going to put any more effort into addressing it.

      As for the rest of it, Demar shot 44.4% for the Game, and much higher than that in the 4th. The team shot 46.5% for the game.
      And with Kyle going 4-13 (0/6 from 3) and Ross going 1/5 from 3, I don't really see what peoples problem is. I get the 27 shots is a lot, but its not like anyone else was looking to step up and win this game for us.
      I am basically saying we dont need to get an all star back for him. A few role players or some depth would suffice, our bench has been getting killed for a while. The fact that Patterson is out and we get nothing off the bench indicates a depth problem. Now that he carries All Star next to his name I am sure we can get a nice package for him. No need to go bananas or put no effort. OldSkoolCool gets it.

      As has been said, nobody could step up. It was ball hog black hole demar. It has been a growing trend since the All Star break and he needs to be reigned in by the coaching staff or if it is now a problem he needs to go. Far too many games I have seen him flub his way to the rim, lose the ball out of bounds and come away with nothing rather than pass to an open team mate on the other side of the basket. He is not playing good team ball that got us here.
      Last edited by Pill; Sun Mar 30, 2014, 08:02 AM.

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      • psrs1 wrote: View Post
        How many games have you watched this year?
        Every single one unless I fell asleep watching, if so I usually caught the game on Game in an Hour. So step up with a rebuttal rather than asking stupid questions that only serve as a drive by post with no substance.
        Last edited by Pill; Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:50 AM.

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        • imanshumpert wrote: View Post
          Volume scoring has become one of the most underrated things in basketball over the past few years. Not saying DeRozan played particularly well yesterday, but I'm reading "trade him for anything" or suggestions that replacing him with role/system players would improve our team. It wouldn't.

          Volume scoring is valuable because there actually aren't that many players that can score with average/slightly below average efficiency while taking a very large number of shots. Players like this are able to take pressure off their teammates, put pressure on the defense, and create scoring opportunities. Inserting a 3&D guy to replace a player like that is not going to create that same effect.

          DeRozan is essentially scoring like Russell Westbrook did for the OKC team that went to the finals. His PPG and TS% are a point and 1% lower than Westbrook's, but his PPS is actually a nudge higher (1.26 compared to 1.23).

          It's fun to pretend that you can just replace a volume-scorers shots with 18-20 shots from role players. But the reality is you're not going to get 18-20 wide open or clean looks a game so those guys are going to struggle without someone to take pressure off them. Tough shots need to be taken in basketball games, period.

          The only thing I will say is that volume scorers are better suited as 2nd options, not alpha-dogs. Ideally you're best scorer is a guy who can score 25+ppg with 1.4/1.5+ PPS. Unfortunately, there are only 4 players in the league capable of doing that right now (Durant, Love, LeBron, Harden). Though, you do see some cases where a volume scorer can actually be the best scorer on the team. Exhibit A is Kobe Bryant, whose PPS in 2009 and 2010 were 1.28 and 1.26 respectively (around what DeRozan's is). I don't think DeMar is that type of player though.
          Sorry, I'm not buying this. Westbrook's volume scoring is hands down the most criticized part of his game. It's his intensity, commitment, defence, and huge, huge stones that make him so valuable - the shot-jacking part is something the Thunder sigh and accept. Also, anytime you have a historically good player on a team (like Durant) you can get away with other key personnel having strange, glaring flaws.

          2009-2010 Kobe had a game similar to Westbrook in that he brought defence and mental toughness to the table, in addition to the volume scoring. And we saw what happened when he wasn't lucky enough to play with a top-5 post player (Shaq or Pau) - the results were pretty ugly.
          "Stop eating your sushi."
          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
          - Jack Armstrong

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          • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
            One could also argue that volume scoring is NOT needed, but efficient scoring.

            Looking at the top 7 teams (SAS, OKC, LAC, IND, MIA, HOU, GSW) the top scorer on each team has a FG% of 49% or higher on 4 of those teams. There are 2 teams where the top scorer shoots above 46% (Harden, Curry, the bottom 2 W/L on that list)). Then Indiana (with the very struggling George) at 36%. Then the Raps leading scorer is DD at 43% (which is in the bottom half of the league)

            I don't care about quantity, I'm not an american cheese burger factory, I want quality.
            There's a reason why we're not a top 7 team, and I already pointed out in my post that volume scorers are better suited as 2nd options . No, obviously you don't want DeRozan as the top scorer on your team if you're trying to win a championship, that is why we are a 2nd round team atm and not a title contender. That unfortunately for you though, does not mean that DeRozan needs to be dealt.

            DeRozan is "needed" on this team right now. Nobody else on the team (except maybe Lowry) is capable of taking on so much usage, defensive attention and shot attempts while still maintaining roughly average efficiency and limiting turnovers. Going and trading DeRozan for someone more efficient (say a Chandler Parsons and some other role players) seems like it makes sense mathematically, but it doesn't actually make sense on the court. You would then have 0 players on the floor who draw double-teams, and redistributing DeRozan's 18 shots a game is actually going to lower the efficiency of guys like Ross/Amir/JV/Lowry who now not only would have to take MORE shots, but also receive more, honest defensive attention.

            The only case in which it would make sense to move DeRozan is if we're getting another guy who can score as much as he can, more efficiently. Maybe 8-10 such players exist in the NBA. And none of them are available for 9.5M per year. Even if you were to get such a player, you don't trade DeRozan for him unless you have to. For example if you were able to put DeRozan next to a Durant, now the defense can't focus on him as much which is going to lead to easier scoring opportunities and better efficiency.

            I'm not saying it's the only way to win, but you don't trade such players away for role players. You don't mortgage star talent for mediocre talents. At the end of the day in the NBA, the most talented team is going to win games. As for what I mentioned before there are examples of teams with volume-scorers as #2 options being very successful.

            For reference:
            DeMar DeRozan: 52.8 TS%, 1.26PPS, 21.4 points/36

            Tony Parker 04-05 Spurs (NBA Champs): 52.8 TS%, 1.19PPS, 17.5 points/36
            Kobe Bryant 01-02 Lakers (NBA Champs): 54.4 TS%, 1.26PPS, 25.2 points/36
            Russell Westbrook 11-12 Thunder (NBA Finals): 53.8 TS%, 1.23PPS, 24.1 points/36
            Rip Hamilton 03-04 Pistons (NBA Champs): 52.2 TS%, 1.19PPS, 17.9 points/36

            That's who I can think of off the top of my head. Note all these players (except Rip) had dominant/efficient scorers who they played 2nd fiddle too (Duncan, Shaq, Durant).

            Comment


            • Guys is this a DeMar DeRozan thread or a Raptors vs. Celtics thread? Just wondering.

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              • Jordan Evans wrote: View Post
                Guys is this a DeMar DeRozan thread or a Raptors vs. Celtics thread? Just wondering.
                Yeah unfortunately it turned into the former because DD decided to take 27 shots in this game :P

                Comment


                • joey_hesketh wrote:
                  As for the rest of it, Demar shot 44.4% for the Game, and much higher than that in the 4th. The team shot 46.5% for the game.
                  Let me tell you about your rose colored glasses and why this statement is totally wrong.

                  DD had a total of 12 shots and 2 FTs in the fourth (+1 TO - he caused the shot clock one). DD made 5 for 41.6%. He went 4/4 in the first 4 minutes, then from the 8 minute mark to the 40 second mark he shot 0-7!!!!

                  The rest of the team took 9 shots and 2 FTs (+2 TOs). Rest of team made 3 for 33.3%. Not great but Lowry or Vasquez not making a single shot is uncharacteristic play.

                  When one player shoots 40% on over half of the team's possessions, then the rest of the team needs to be uber efficient in order to compensate for how bad that player is using those possessions. If you look at the box score, outside of Lowry (4-13), we had 5 guys shoot 50% or better, Ross at 46.2% and GV at 45.4%. Minus DD, the rest of the team shot 28-59 for 47.4%. Subtract Lowry from that and the rest of the team went 24-46 for 52.2%!!

                  DD shot 12-27 for 44%, and is the main reason why our team shot 46.5% on the game. (as well as Lowry)

                  It is the rest of our team's efficiency that carries this team not DD, hence why we see this team struggle so much when Lowry/Amir/Val/Ross/GV have bad games, because in order to win we need all of those guys shooting at good percentages in order to carry DD.
                  Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Sun Mar 30, 2014, 01:35 PM.

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