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  • LJ2
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    OK so we're (arguably) deeper than all the teams that finished ahead of us, including the 1 that went up 3-0 on us and eventually knocked us out in the first round. Doesn't mean shit in the NBA. If we start knocking off the Bulls, Heat, Sixers in future years, it will have nothing to do with depth, it will be because our young guys got better than their aging guys.
    How so? Are our young guys turning into elite stars like the ones fans complain aren't coming to Toronto in free agency? I mean there is hope for Scottie turning into a special player, but that is far from certain. So how is

    The point here is Masai isn't whining about Toronto not being a hot spot for free agents and he's trying to establish other ways to win a championship in a league that is star driven. He's created a team that is deeper with good players in place of the standard model where a team has one or two stars and there's a huge drop off in talent after that. Maybe the model the Raptors are using pays off or maybe it doesn't, but using the series against Philly as the reason to say the model doesn't work is absurd. The team is in their first year of development and was largely made up of inexperienced players in their first playoff series.

    Leave a comment:


  • NeedTristanThompson
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    From what I understand, there was another contingency out of our control: Masai's deal to get the #12 pick would have only been considered by OKC if Steven Adams was OFF the board at #11 or earlier. Unfortunately, he was still there at 12 and they used the pick themselves.
    Ah I see, that makes sense. Sad sad sad. And to think OKC could've picked Giannis instead of Steven Adams with that pick. Can you imagine????? Sheesh what are the other GMs doing compared to Masai?!

    Well, I guess we got a championship regardless so it all somewhat worked out!!! I still miss #GIANNIS2021 (((

    #SCOTTIEBARNES2025 (resigning)

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post

    If that is what you got from that series then there isn't much that can be said to convince you that Raps are heading in the right direction. Just continue pounding that square free agency peg into the round hole that is Toronto
    OK so we're (arguably) deeper than all the teams that finished ahead of us, including the 1 that went up 3-0 on us and eventually knocked us out in the first round. Doesn't mean shit in the NBA. If we start knocking off the Bulls, Heat, Sixers in future years, it will have nothing to do with depth, it will be because our young guys got better than their aging guys.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    NeedTristanThompson wrote: View Post
    ""is our deal contingent on our guy being there? I said yes." SAY NO MASAI. GET THE PICK AND SAY NO. HE WOULD'vE BEEN THERE AT 12. OR AT 14. (((("

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ficds0wx8bY

    #ONERINGGIANNIS
    #NEVERAGAIN
    #CELTICSIN7
    From what I understand, there was another contingency out of our control: Masai's deal to get the #12 pick would have only been considered by OKC if Steven Adams was OFF the board at #11 or earlier. Unfortunately, he was still there at 12 and they used the pick themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    So since we finished 5th in the conference and couldn't get out of the first round, losing to one of those top heavy not deep teams, it's proven that deep is over rated when you can have 1-3 "really talented players"?
    If that is what you got from that series then there isn't much that can be said to convince you that Raps are heading in the right direction. Just continue pounding that square free agency peg into the round hole that is Toronto

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post

    The front office isn't living and dying on improving the team through free agency and thank goodness for that. They've identified that it's an issue, accepted it, and while they still explore it, it's not plan A, B or maybe even C. At least not right now.

    How many teams field a roster of 5-6 players deep that are as good as ours? Most contending teams are top heavy with 1-3 really talented players and there's a big drop off after that. How many teams have better 4th and 5th options than Scottie or Trent? Miami is the only one I can think of and the are old, future is now for them.
    So since we finished 5th in the conference and couldn't get out of the first round, losing to one of those top heavy not deep teams, it's proven that deep is over rated when you can have 1-3 "really talented players"?

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    Jclaw wrote: View Post

    I know we treat free agents like the white whale, so let's take a look at the external free agent market last year

    Demar (been there)
    Lonzo (good but injured)
    Fournier for 18 million (the list is already looking bleak)
    Markkanen (16 million)
    Dinwiddie (18 million)
    Devonte Graham (11x4)
    Doug Mcdermott (14 million)
    Kelly O (12 million)
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Is there any one there that you wished Masai could have persuaded to put up with our taxes and snow? Just because he swung and "missed" doesn't mean other teams hit home runs
    The front office isn't living and dying on improving the team through free agency and thank goodness for that. They've identified that it's an issue, accepted it, and while they still explore it, it's not plan A, B or maybe even C. At least not right now.

    How many teams field a roster of 5-6 players deep that are as good as ours? Most contending teams are top heavy with 1-3 really talented players and there's a big drop off after that. How many teams have better 4th and 5th options than Scottie or Trent? Miami is the only one I can think of and the are old, future is now for them.

    Leave a comment:


  • NeedTristanThompson
    replied
    ""is our deal contingent on our guy being there? I said yes." SAY NO MASAI. GET THE PICK AND SAY NO. HE WOULD'vE BEEN THERE AT 12. OR AT 14. (((("

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ficds0wx8bY

    #ONERINGGIANNIS
    #NEVERAGAIN
    #CELTICSIN7

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWaterboy
    replied
    Those two-year, 5-million-or-less contracts are important from a bird rights perspective; those aren't our marquee signings; they're our take-a-flyer-on-someone-potential-without-tying-our-cap-up signings. Of those players, Boucher and Johnson panned out for us, and Brissett panned out for someone else, which isn't a bad average for these types of signings overall.

    Boucher in particular has come into his own as a secondary complementary player this year; regardless of what happens going forward, he's proved himself to be valuable already, and a nice get.

    Leave a comment:


  • Primer
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    The $5M dollar number wasn't random, I'm talking about reasonably significant FA which is the problem to attract here. So that's actually a very low cut off level because it, the list is near nil. I didn't include signing our own players obviously, to exclude players like FVV, Kyle and DeMar.

    Below it, Terrence had promise until he burned out his welcome, Bismack was dent for a year and Boucher is more than serviceable. Still a pretty dismal list.
    The cutoff doesn't make any sense though because we haven't had that much cap space to spend and we typically use our available space to resign our current guys, which is actually excellent roster management and what you want to see. We haven't lost any homegrown guys we wanted to keep since Bosh left.

    JJ, Biyombo, Boucher, RHJ, CoJo all did pretty well for us. What you'd hope for given their deals.

    Flipping Davis and Thomas for picks and Sully for Tucker are wins for me too.

    Signing FVV is a massive grand slam homerun and stupid to leave out considering he's the only UDFA we've hit it out of the park with. If teams were routinely nailing UDFA then sure but 1 in Masai's tenure I don't think it's fair to leave him out. That was a career altering signing for Masai.

    Demarre Carroll is the only real bad move we'd like to get back. Everyone else performed nearly as expected given their deals.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    Jclaw wrote: View Post

    I know we treat free agents like the white whale, so let's take a look at the external free agent market last year

    Demar (been there)
    Lonzo (good but injured)
    Fournier for 18 million (the list is already looking bleak)
    Markkanen (16 million)
    Dinwiddie (18 million)
    Devonte Graham (11x4)
    Doug Mcdermott (14 million)
    Kelly O (12 million)
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Is there any one there that you wished Masai could have persuaded to put up with our taxes and snow? Just because he swung and "missed" doesn't mean other teams hit home runs
    I can't stand the Balls but yeah, without hindsight (injuries) I would have liked to see how Lonzo would look here from that list.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    Primer wrote: View Post

    You're missing his best free agent signing with your completely arbitrary $5M cutoff (which also would exclude Hansbrough). A rather huge omission.

    Fred Van Vleet (2 years $1.8M, 2016)

    Here are some more you missed and I'm going to ignore the completely unnecessary $5M cutoff.

    James Johnson (2 years $5M, 2014)
    Luis Scola (1 year $2.9M, 2015)
    Bismack Biyombo (1 year $2.8M, 2015)
    Chris Boucher (2 years $2M, 2018)
    Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (1 year $2.5M, 2019)
    Terrence Davis (2 years $2.4M, 2019) [turned into a 2nd round pick]
    Matt Thomas (2 years $2.4M, 2019) [turned into a 2nd round pick]
    OShae Brisset (2 years, $430K, 2019)

    I'd also note he flipped Sullinger for PJ Tucker at the trade deadline, which was a clear win for Toronto.

    Considering we never have cap space setting a cutoff for the contracts you look at makes no sense. These are the kind of deals that are going to be available to us this offseason so they seem quite relevant to me as predictors of what Masai and Bobby may do.
    The $5M dollar number wasn't random, I'm talking about reasonably significant FA which is the problem to attract here. So that's actually a very low cut off level because it, the list is near nil. I didn't include signing our own players obviously, to exclude players like FVV, Kyle and DeMar.

    Below it, Terrence had promise until he burned out his welcome, Bismack was dent for a year and Boucher is more than serviceable. Still a pretty dismal list.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jclaw
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post
    You can argue that Toronto itself isn't a FA destination (foreign country, weather) or that Masai has done everything possible (Giants of Africa, overall management group, coaching staff, medical group, ownership willing to spend, 2019 chip etc) but results are results and overall a solid D grading and I'm not expecting a thing this off season except nibbling around the edges again and bench tweaks. Even there, his results are less than stellar. He and Bobby need to hit on a few diamonds in the rough that actually pan out.

    External Free Agents signed under Masai (minimum $5M). Am I missing anybody?
    1/ Aaron Baynes (2 years $14.3M, 2020)
    2/ Stanley Johnson (2 years, $7.5M, 2019)
    3/ Jared Sullinger (1 year $6M, 2016)
    4/ DeMarre Carrol (4 years $60M, 2015)
    5/ Cory Joseph (4 years $30M, 2015)
    6/ Tyler Hansbrough (2 years 47.5M, 2013)




    I know we treat free agents like the white whale, so let's take a look at the external free agent market last year

    Demar (been there)
    Lonzo (good but injured)
    Fournier for 18 million (the list is already looking bleak)
    Markkanen (16 million)
    Dinwiddie (18 million)
    Devonte Graham (11x4)
    Doug Mcdermott (14 million)
    Kelly O (12 million)
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Is there any one there that you wished Masai could have persuaded to put up with our taxes and snow? Just because he swung and "missed" doesn't mean other teams hit home runs

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    Free agents don't want to come to Toronto. That's reality. Masai acknowledged it already.



    This could change in the future if Scottie develops into a superstar who recruits his buddies, and the Raps become a legit chip contender. But until then, it is what it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Even if the Raptors of today would still struggle to land big fish in free agency, it doesn't matter because it's not how Masai builds a team. He doesn't need to pay big fish in free agency to build a winner and the way he builds a team leads to greater longevity. He built a system to develop studs instead of depending on freeing up space to lure other teams' studs. There's more than one winning formula.

    If I were to guess, I don't think Toronto would be a highly sought after spot for an American star NBA free agent and that's perfectly fine. The Raptors don't need that appeal to be successful.

    Leave a comment:

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