Everything 2019 Offseason!

[Apollo]

Well, Biyombo is the obvious one. They pulled him off the scrap heap and made him ~$70 million.

But did they really develop him in that one season or was it that they better utilized what he brought to the table? He doesn't look like a changed player to me. He looks like a contract year mirage.

[DogeLover1234]

Well we'll see about that this year because as of right now I can't think of any examples in house of a player who busted elsewhere, then came to the Raptors and totally turned it around. The story seems to go: rookie was overlooked by many, acquired by the Raptors, developed over a few years and then became someone. One could argue, for sure, that story shows the Raptors' ability to scout better than most. Now if Stanley Johnson breaks out next season then surely you're on to something specific about this organization. For right now I think they're elite at finding talent. Let's see them turn around someone else's mess.

Kawhi and Lou Will are decent examples; not thats they were bad elsewhere but came off injury elsewhere to great seasons. Lowry is the best one though, guy had an awful reputation and could have easily bounced around the league for another 4-5 years with little success. All a bit different from what you are talking about for sure though.

[Hotshot]

Enter the Dragan?



The Raptors are starting to look more and more like Joey's dynasty team, circa 2017.

Most Euro players seems to always attach their names to the Raptors organization just to raise their value (because it's Toronto).

At this point DB will be fighting for a 2 way NBA contract and that is something that could bring his value even more lower. Better find a Euro team that would pay him well for 2 or 3 years now and hopefully he can develop there.

[golden]

But did they really develop him in that one season or was it that they better utilized what he brought to the table? He doesn't look like a changed player to me. He looks like a contract year mirage.

Yep. Biyombo was more about excellent fit and timing as opposed to player development. He came here during the height of the Lowry/DeRozan Ride & Die era. He was low usage and didn't require any plays run for him on offense. When KL/DD hoisted up bricks, he got offensive rebounds and gave them another chance (which boosted the offensive efficiency). He was an athletic lob threat who could catch bad passes from Lowry and finish above the rim. And most importantly, Biz allowed Lowry and DeRozan to rest on defense (and conserve energy for offense), because he was quick enough to recover at the rim when they got blown by on the perimeter (almost every other play).

[Apollo]

Kawhi and Lou Will are decent examples; not thats they were bad elsewhere but came off injury elsewhere to great seasons. Lowry is the best one though, guy had an awful reputation and could have easily bounced around the league for another 4-5 years with little success. All a bit different from what you are talking about for sure though.

So you're saying that the Raptors' developmental system, in particular the time Masai has been here, is to thank for how Leonard, Williams and Lowry developed their game and converted that into production?

[slaw]

Kawhi and Lou Will are decent examples; not thats they were bad elsewhere but came off injury elsewhere to great seasons. Lowry is the best one though, guy had an awful reputation and could have easily bounced around the league for another 4-5 years with little success. All a bit different from what you are talking about for sure though.

The Raps have a way of getting the most out of their players. Maybe that's better called 'utilizing personnel effectively' but you can also describe it as player development.

[DogeLover1234]

So you're saying that the Raptors' developmental system, in particular the time Masai has been here, is to thank for how Leonard, Williams and Lowry developed their game and converted that into production?

I thought I pretty clearly didnt say that. Play production is a culmination of many factors including player development - the Rpators have shown to be one of the better orgs in all aspects of helping players. Kawhi and Lou came back from injury to then career years (this often doesnt happen). Lowry had a reputation as uncoachable and had been on a couple teams, he could easily have gone to a couple more bad situations and never have taken off elsewhere. Id add in Danny Green as an example, great rebound season on the court, plus ended up doing a lot off the court - though idk how luch the team had to do with that.

Adding in guys like Ross and JV, Toronto has been a place guys can prolong and improve their careers (obviously not always), id say in part because the team takes a good holistic view of development. Its worth noting many players play well even when they leave, which contrasts with say Boston, where players have career years but become irrelevent elsewhere.

[Apollo]

The Raps have a way of getting the most out of their players. Maybe that's better called 'utilizing personnel effectively' but you can also describe it as player development.

I think that's a stretch. All three of those guys had outstanding seasons at their own particular levels before showing up in Toronto. The only one of the three a strong case can be made for is Kyle, I'll give you him. But the other two in particular illustrate Masai's ability to locate talent which fits the program in order to maximize output. Optimization. I don't think the Raptors developed Kawhi at all, he was ready to use, same with Lou. The Raptors excel at finding talent, the right talent. Sort of like the New England Patriots. I'm not seeing any smoking gun in here to suggest its their amazing ability to develop players because there are no examples of guys who struggled elsewhere but then came here and everything changed. Kyle's big problem prior to coming wasn't skills.

No doubt the Raptors have a good developmental system but its the scouting of the talent and execution of landing those players that weighs much heavier into the success. Just ask Bruno. Did the system fail him or was he rather a rare scouting dud?

[planetmars]

Patterson was at his best as a Raptor.. so I would think he's the only guy that qualifies as a guy that came in from a different team that was developed in Toronto. He sucks now though so maybe he's a bad example too.

Ultimately in the NBA it's always about opportunity. How much consistent time is a guy getting. Who's he playing with. What role they have when they're playing, etc.

Nurse had confidence in Pascal after seeing him workout in the summer. That confidence helped him get the start over OG/Serge and we got an MIP out of it. Of course he was developed internally but still that type of confidence is what is needed for someone like Stanley or RHJ. And they need the right role on this team too. If RHJ is just an energy big that gets a few rebounds and blocks.. he's not going to improve. If Stanley is just going to be a catch and shoot 3 guy that plays defense.. he's not going to improve either.

But if both get the ability to handle the ball, and plays are actually made for them .. they might develop/get better. We'll see what happens.

[Apollo]

But wouldn't that make Pat a system guy? The right talent scouted and acquired? If he truely developed in the Raptors system wouldn't he be good elsewhere as well? Maybe I'm defining development different than some of you guys. I define development as growth. What happened to Pat's development when he left town, did customs confistcate it? If he grew as a player thanks to the Raptors then those gains should still be present.

I think he's a lot like Biz. They saw him for what he was and put him in situations to get the most out of what that was. He dropped off elsewhere because he either didn't fit well or wasn't utilized properly. Same Pat & Biz, different circumstances.

[DanH]

But wouldn't that make Pat a system guy? The right talent scouted and acquired? If he truely developed in the Raptors system wouldn't he be good elsewhere as well? Maybe I'm defining development different than some of you guys. I define development as growth. What happened to Pat's development when he left town, did customs confistcate it? If he grew as a player thanks to the Raptors then those gains should still be present.

I think he's a lot like Biz. They saw him for what he was and put him in situations to get the most out of what that was. He dropped off elsewhere because he either didn't fit well or wasn't utilized properly. Same Pat & Biz, different circumstances.

To be fair, when Patterson left town he was broken. He essentially had a career ending knee injury in his final season here and has just kept playing after it. He was a disaster here in the final half season after his injury and his continued disaster elsewhere since is not a huge surprise given that.

[Apollo]

To be fair, when Patterson left town he was broken. He essentially had a career ending knee injury in his final season here and has just kept playing after it. He was a disaster here in the final half season after his injury and his continued disaster elsewhere since is not a huge surprise given that.

Ok, so he's a bad example to use either way. My point still stands.

[Hotshot]

To be fair, when Patterson left town he was broken. He essentially had a career ending knee injury in his final season here and has just kept playing after it. He was a disaster here in the final half season after his injury and his continued disaster elsewhere since is not a huge surprise given that.

But ESPN were raving that OKC got Patterson! Even tho the most casual of Raptor fans knew Patterson was done.

Fuck ESPN!

[S.R.]

Iverson is not a full tier (or two) above DD and would not have made the HoF if he played today. Modern analytics would expose AI badly as a rich man's Monta Ellis. Just checked AI's numbers again: multiple 101 ORTGs and a 96 ORTG (wtf!) in his prime All-Star years. Holy.... that's disgusting.

Not an argument for anyone but a Raptors fan. Get back to me when guys like DD and Monta carry a team to the Finals. They haven't even sniffed the 4th round as a 1A and never will.
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[magoon]

Beal is not a superstar level guy that you sell anything to pair with Siakam.

If you can get him for a decent price (expiring vet, mid-level prospect - OG, Powell, FVV, and one first rounder) sure.

Honestly, I think even this is too high, because on his next deal Beal is going to get $35 million a year from some team - it'll happen, because several teams will have cap space to make a run at Giannis and there's only one Giannis. Do you want to spend $35 million a season on Bradley Beal? Because if not, he's a rental, and that's way too high a price for a rental who isn't a top-five player in the league.