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  • #46
    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. We're trying to get through the toughest part of the season with a winning record, and people are worried about finding minutes for our youngest players when we just got a development team? Mind-bottling.

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    • #47
      SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
      And Casey would never start a rookie centre...oh, wait.
      Colangelo set up that roster so that he had no choice...

      (And, who knows, may have even ordered DC to start JV.)
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

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      • #48
        SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
        And Casey would never start a rookie centre...oh, wait.
        SHHHH. That doesn't fit the narrative. Don't present inconvenient facts.

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        • #49
          slaw wrote: View Post
          With Bruno I think you have to remove him from the discussion. He was always going to be a long term project, so to compare him to an average NBA rookie is not really fair to Bruno or the organization.
          I think everyone as a whole needs to figure out just what the hell "long term project" even means. Is that saying he won't be producing at a high level in some time (what I think it means) or is it to say that he won't get regular rookie minutes until his 5th year in the league?

          SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
          Did they force-feed these guys minutes though? Or did those minutes come naturally in the flow of the season based on need and readiness?
          I can give you a number of reasons as to why the guys I named were not needed on the court.

          slaw wrote: View Post
          SHHHH. That doesn't fit the narrative. Don't present inconvenient facts.
          JV was a top 5 pick on an injury riddled lottery team. Of course it doesn't fit the narrative.

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          • #50
            I generally agree with you guys, but just a couple of reminders. You guys, rightly or wrongly used to roast Casey for his bizarre line-ups and odd rotations, pre-Rudy Gay trade. If we are to develop our players we might have to go back to that, it will cost us some games, but in order for us not to get stuck in a 'middle of the road team going nowhere', where we are now, we need our young guys to develop.

            Powell and Wright are both NBA ready enough to get 10 minutes a night. Ross and Derozan both need someone to push them as neither of them are this teams answer at the 2, (keep Derozan off the line and shooting jump shots and he'll shoot the Raptors out of the game a-la last years playoffs). (Ross you can never rely on to win you the game on either end, if he shows-up that's gravy. Expecting, him to carry the bench scoring and/or fight for Derozan's starting spot is not going to happen, it's just not in his personality.

            Cory Joseph, has exceeded my expectations, is perforrming much better offensively than I would of imagined. While not the 3-point threat that Vasquez was he pretty much exceeds him in every other facet of the game. So maybe, a Wright-Joseph bench backcourt is what we need right now. At this point of the season no need, to force Ross playing minutes if his game-to-game impact is going to be so mercurial.

            Powell, unlike Ross wants to be great, that alone should be enough to give him minutes. He might struggle even more than Ross, but he should be allowed to work through his rookie growing pains, just like they did with Derozan in his rookie year.

            Bennett isn't ready for 15 minutes a night, but Patterson needs to be pushed to perform more. Might as well let Bennett struggle scoring the ball, if Patterson is struggling anyways. Plus, Bennett has the bigger upside, if he can play Patterson's game while already being a better rebounder and can have a bigger impact on defense with his length and athleticism, it would be a huge coup for the Raptors.

            Caboclo, unfortunately, isn't remotely ready to be force-fed minutes, he is barely a top 5 player on the 905 right now. Noguiera isn't ready either, he should only be getting regular minutes when JV or Biyombo are injured, like right now.

            Casey is coaching this team, like it has Eastern Conference finals potential, while second round is pretty much as far as this team can possibly go. He can shorten the bench and focus on winning basketball after the All-star break, right now it should be about development and growing pains. Our bench is a dissapointment and our 5-man starters unit is hopelessly flawed. We have 2.5 young players who should be given 15 minutes a night, no excuses.
            -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
            -"ďI ainít no diva! I donít have no blond hair, red hair. Iím Reggie Evans.Ē

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            • #51
              Raptorsss wrote: View Post
              Casey is coaching this team, like it has Eastern Conference finals potential, while second round is pretty much as far as this team can possibly go.
              I think this summarizes the discussion on player development. On an expiring contract with expectations based on post-season results, Casey's focus is (rightfully) on winning today. For me, the disconnect is that I don't really think MU's primary focus is on winning today, as he's still in the building/developing phase.

              The ironic thing is that this was the biggest complain about Casey going back at least 2 years. The Raptors were clearly rebuilding (almost outright tanking), yet Casey still preferred to play veterans (ie: Anderson, Salmons, Hayes, Hansbrough, etc...) in critical minutes of games. Yes, players like JV and Ross got some minutes and even started, but that crunch-time experience is crucial to the development of young players that you expect to be part of your core/rotation going forward.

              I can't really fault Casey, beyond the point about playing a few key players far too many minutes to be sustainable throughout the season and into the playoffs. We saw this before with BC in his last season or two, how important it is that the GM, head coach and roster all be on the same page in terms of priorities (ie: win now, build/develop, rebuild, etc...). Casey might be successful in winning more in the present, but I'm not sure that's in the best long-term interest of the team. Tough call to be sure.

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              • #52
                @SkywalkerAC and @Slaw

                Because our opinion on the subject was different from yours, you decided to misread what we posted by creating this strange narrative and then proceed to talk down to anyone who went against the narrative you made up for what we posted

                Grow up.

                Players need playing time to develop. I dont care what other teams do...if we want to get better, and make a sustainabke program you need to be good at developing young guys. If you disagree with that, leave this thread alone.

                It would be great if we could work them in during the second and third periods (when the game isnt on the line). Teach the wings how to play off the ball (a great skill), then give them important minutes when they are ready.

                Unless you think that practice is the same as the game....To which I would vehemently disagree

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                • #53
                  TRex wrote: View Post
                  Bad example. Wow. I'm speechless right now.

                  Tony Parker, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo.....those guys CAN ALL PLAY.

                  Is it really that hard to understand? JV got regular playing time during his rookie season, same w/ Ross. Why? because they can play. They can help the team.

                  Bruno is NOWHERE near ready to play in the NBA man. Nowhere near ready. His buddy Bebe MIGHT be, but where would you play him? he's not a better player than Biyombo. No way.

                  A lot of posters here are obsessed w/ these 2 Brazilian kids. I don't get it lol.
                  I guess I missed the earlier round of debate, but I actually agree with your assessment of Bruno and Bebe. I was more disagreeing with the idea that winning programs don't develop young players. None of those guys (Rondo, Bynum, Parker) were blue chip prospects - far from it. They weren't great from the get-go and none were projected to do what they did in the league.

                  Bebe might have a shot at un-seating Biz after getting comfortable with the O/D systems and some extended run, so what's the downside of playing him 10-15 minutes a game at the expense of Biz, Scola and 2Pat? I wouldn't mind seeing what we have in Bebe; i.e., is there an NBA player there, or at least a tradeable asset? What's the worst that can happen? The Raps might lose a few more games, but so what? We're not winning the chip this year anyways. Scola and Biz are free agents so Bebe is the only guy that we have salary control over next year (barring trade). His mix of length and mobility is intriguing and should be explored as a priority.

                  With JV out, now is the time to do it - a few minutes from 2Pat, Biz and Scola should easily get you a regular 10 minutes a night, especially if we go back to hockey units, 2Pat and Bebe (on paper) seems like a decent pairing. Casey can even scramble to his heart's content.
                  Last edited by golden; Fri Nov 27th, 2015, 08:55 PM.

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                  • #54
                    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                    @SkywalkerAC and @Slaw

                    Because our opinion on the subject was different from yours, you decided to misread what we posted by creating this strange narrative and then proceed to talk down to anyone who went against the narrative you made up for what we posted

                    Grow up.

                    Players need playing time to develop. I dont care what other teams do...if we want to get better, and make a sustainabke program you need to be good at developing young guys. If you disagree with that, leave this thread alone.

                    It would be great if we could work them in during the second and third periods (when the game isnt on the line). Teach the wings how to play off the ball (a great skill), then give them important minutes when they are ready.

                    Unless you think that practice is the same as the game....To which I would vehemently disagree
                    So you're basically telling us to get out of this thread because we disagree with you?

                    Back to the topic at hand, now that we have the 905, and are a winning team, I have full confidence in Masai and co's developmental program. Before, with Casey's penchant for playing vets like AA, and forgoing even garbage time for development minutes, there was a pretty big gap.

                    Bottomline, there's something to be said for really making players really earn their minutes, rather than being gifted them (see Bargnani). Thankfully Powell has already earned a few, and Biz (though a young-vet like JV) is really shining through.
                    Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Fri Nov 27th, 2015, 06:16 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Mr School.

                      Most but not all NBA teams go about 9 deep on the rotation. Those are the guys who play because they give you the best chance to win every night. So it would look like, if healthy, our 9 man rotation is Kyle, Joseph, DD, Ross, Scola, Patterson, Carroll, Biz and JVal. If the premise in profeshonal basketball is to win every game you can, and I am pretty sure it is, then you go with the best 9 guys. We do that. You build a winning culture and you have a hierarchy in place. Your goal if your not top 9 is to get better than one of the guys in the top 9. You do that in practice and with an 82 game sched with back to backs and injurys you will get a shot. You have to be ready to show your better in that very limited audition. If you do you will get another shot. If you don't you stay outside with your nose pressed against the window. Ruthless business pro sports eh ?

                      Of that crew the weakest links at this writing are arguably Ross and Patterson. They scuffle and if someone can show during practice or in game time minutes they can or have the probability to be better than those two night in and night out then their minutes will diffuse to the challengers. Who are those challengers ?


                      The positional players ready to challenge for those minutes are Norm Powell on the wing for Ross Bruno is just not ready. Playing him so he gets schooled bad at this stage is not doing him or the team favours. He plays in the D League till he shows he can hold his own. We shall see much later in the season if he indeed improves enough to warrant a crack at some minutes if Ross or Powell are scuffling. The other positional player who could challenge Patterson is the jazz singer Tony Bennett. JJ is a lot of things but if we are going with a traditional lineup instead of small he would and has struggled at the 4. So by default that leaves Bennett.

                      Lo and behold those two guys that of the non rotational 9 who are getting the most developmental minutes at about 6-7 mins avg. right now. The rest get 2 mins of garbage time. So they are pushing the incumbents for time but haven't shown enough as of yet to up those minutes averages. Its early and that could change. But thats development in the NBA. Show me your better and you'll play.

                      The others who fill our the roster would see Bebe having to challenge JV+Biz. Most on the forums think JV isn't getting enough time to begin with so where does Bebe get mins ? Now that JV is hurt we should see him some between now and New Years.
                      Delon has to take minutes away from Kyle and Joseph.. Lots of disucssion on CoJo being ready to start in the league so he needs the time. Kyle is leading the charge so unless its a blow out how does Delon get in.
                      Bruno we covered above.
                      JJ gets and will get some minutes at the 3 but from my view is not part of the long term plan and is insurance if we get an injury.

                      It is what it is Mr.School. We have a Dleague team for the not ready for prime time players and thats where they will go to learn their craft. When they are deemed ready they can come and challenge the varsity.

                      For the record I see Powell staying and playing some. Same for Bebe.
                      Bennett/Bruno/Delon will be hard pressed (save for an injury to Kyle or CoJo for Delon) to get any playing time this year.
                      Last edited by Demographic Shift; Fri Nov 27th, 2015, 07:58 PM.

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                      • #56
                        If either Powell or Bennett could actually shoot. I feel like they would of already surpassed Ross and 2pat. The fact that Ross and 2pat have proven in the past that they can shoot give them the edge. This team needs shooting and cause of that Casey has to play play Ross and 2pat.
                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • #57
                          I don't mind you saying that we are going to play the guys who are earning their playing time, but follow through with it. If you are going to bench someone for making a stupid defensive play and giving up a bucket (i.e. Ross) thats fine, but you better do the same when DD takes several bad shots in a row, or at least tell the guy to stop. History says Casey picks favorites, which is contrary to the whole, "these guys are going to earn their minutes." Who's to say that Wright/Powell/Bebe aren't playing well and practice and should earn minutes? Bebe has played well in the D-League and Wright is coming off a 9/9 shooting night, so it looks like they are playing pretty well.

                          Bottom line, we have no clue how well the young guys look in practice, but I am willing to bet that when they see that Casey sticks to his guys, they probably lose spirits and either put less work in or aren't ready for when they get their chance.

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                          • #58
                            OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                            Bayno has done a really good job with both JV and Ross.

                            For the first time in franchise history I am confident in our ability to draft someone and help them succeed. Not like in the past where we just hope that they 'get it'
                            "where we just hope that they 'get it"
                            That's Colangelo logic right there

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                            • #59
                              I might add that it looks that Bruno has come a long way despite virtually no varsity minutes. He was so raw that there was nowhere to go but up with his talent, still an interesting case. There's so much behind developing a player beyond finding them a few minutes.

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                              • #60
                                Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                                Mr School.
                                Haha not sure why but this had me rolling. Carry on, Mr. Shift

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