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  • slaw wrote: View Post

    What I am arguing is that there are all sorts of ordinary rules (legal and ethical) that should apply to sports contracts...... The reason that these basic legal and ethical rules should apply is that they have been developed over hundreds of years to ensure transactions work effectively. Throwing aside these rules because muh sports is different has, and will continue to, lead to all sorts of problems for pro sports leagues.
    Which legal or ethical rule did Paul George break? Please elaborate.

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    • golden wrote: View Post

      Which legal or ethical rule did Paul George break? Please elaborate.
      You run a business. You can figure it out.

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      • slaw wrote: View Post

        You run a business. You can figure it out.
        Apparently the folks running OKC's business were thrilled with PG's 'gift' that provided them with the 'pragmatic relief' they were looking for. What was your point again?

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          So, this whole thread started a judgement of the league due to Kawhi recruiting PG and then PG so-called breaking his contract. Sounds more like OKC was quite happy with their good fortune....





          https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...market-miracle


          Actually, I started the thread looking more at other examples/big picture over the past few years. I'm actually with you on this recent Paul George move, OKC didn't really get screwed here with a trade demand.

          More clear-cut examples of that (whether the team deserved or not) rather this more recent PG move are
          --Kawhi asking out of Spurs for LA (even though we were the great beneficiaries of that, Spurs leverage at the time was really crippled)
          --Paul George asking out of Pacers for LA (worked out for the Pacers because Oladipo turned out to be an-all star in the making, but that wasn't known at the time, Pacers leverage was depressed)
          --AD asking out of Pelicans for LA (team probably deserved it though)

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          • golden wrote: View Post

            Apparently the folks running OKC's business were thrilled with PG's 'gift' that provided them with the 'pragmatic relief' they were looking for. What was your point again?
            Assuming that the Thunder are telling the truth and not just spinning a story for the season ticket holders, I'm not entirely sure what the Thunder making the best out of a poor turn of events has to do with whether the actors involved behaved ethically. It's trite but just because ultimately the course of events works out for a few people in the short term, it doesn't follow that the right thing was done for the right reasons.

            Comment


            • Players have a lot of power in this league.. if they demand a trade they'll get it. Not sure what you can say.. but I've never ever seen a player not get is wish. Heck even Bledsoe got dealt from the Suns and he's no star.

              Nobody wants a disgruntled player playing for them. Doesn't matter if its a top 10 talent in the league or some journey man. If the guy doesn't want to play for that organization he'll get moved. The only exception may be a draft pick/rookie who's trying to create a name for themselves in the league. But even then.. we've seen cases where a guy didn't want to play for the team that drafted him and got moved (look at Steve Francis).

              In a league where a team has at most 15 players.. this is just the way it is.

              And even if you can put language in the next CBA to try and prevent it.. the players will say no. They want that power.


              And as a fan.. I'd rather have my star wanting to leave a year before his contract is up so I can get something good back for him, than for him to leave in free agency. We got nothing for Kawhi which is ridiculous. Davis has one year left on his deal and NO got a sh!t load of picks/talent.

              And that is the one stipulation I would add to the CBA. If a max player leaves a team in free agency they should get compensated by getting at least one (unprotected) first round pick by the team that picks him up. We should have gotten a FRP for Kawhi. GSW should have gotten one for KD. Boston for Kyrie, Charlotte for Kemba, etc.

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              • slaw wrote: View Post

                Assuming that the Thunder are telling the truth and not just spinning a story for the season ticket holders, I'm not entirely sure what the Thunder making the best out of a poor turn of events has to do with whether the actors involved behaved ethically. It's trite but just because ultimately the course of events works out for a few people in the short term, it doesn't follow that the right thing was done for the right reasons.
                What are the Thunder spinning for season ticket holders? They have nothing to gain by admitting that they were thinking about breaking up the team by 2020, as the article states. In fact, it's a negative.

                But again, what did PG do that was un-ethical? He made a request. The Thunder could have said no and swept everything under the rug. Instead, they jumped at the "gift". In fact, they jumped so fast that no other team in the league even knew that PG was up for sale - that is unprecedented for superstar being on the market. And Presti was smart enough to leverage PG's gift to get the Clippers to basically bid against themselves. The Thunder weren't just making the best out of a "poor" turn of events - they were looking for a trigger to break up the team that wouldn't reflect poorly on ownership. PG's gift was it. It's not hard to understand the connection - those 2 quotes from the article spell it out pretty clearly.

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                • slaw wrote: View Post

                  What I am arguing is that there are all sorts of ordinary rules (legal and ethical) that should apply to sports contracts...... The reason that these basic legal and ethical rules should apply is that they have been developed over hundreds of years to ensure transactions work effectively. Throwing aside these rules because muh sports is different has, and will continue to, lead to all sorts of problems for pro sports leagues.
                  Yeah, so, you don't think players should be tradeable. Which is fine, but is not a reasonable stance that will go anywhere when proposing actual ideas.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

                  Comment


                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    And that is the one stipulation I would add to the CBA. If a max player leaves a team in free agency they should get compensated by getting at least one (unprotected) first round pick by the team that picks him up. We should have gotten a FRP for Kawhi. GSW should have gotten one for KD. Boston for Kyrie, Charlotte for Kemba, etc.
                    Essentially, curtail player freedom by restricting their market. Tough sell to the PA.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

                    Comment


                    • slaw wrote: View Post

                      What I am arguing is that there are all sorts of ordinary rules (legal and ethical) that should apply to sports contracts...... The reason that these basic legal and ethical rules should apply is that they have been developed over hundreds of years to ensure transactions work effectively. Throwing aside these rules because muh sports is different has, and will continue to, lead to all sorts of problems for pro sports leagues.
                      Like Dan said, everytime I hear somebody compare pro sports leagues to the real world, I roll my eyes. It's a non-sensical comparison. If you want pro sports to equal the real world, then there's no draft and 100% free agency with no salary caps. Not sure where that ends up, but it's probably something like European football with multiple divisions. Is that the system you want? Even that has contrived rules. But with the NBA you also have to factor in the abomination that is the NCAA and the draconian roster limits bargained by the player's association to limit the pool of new player talent. It's complicated.

                      Comment


                      • The NBA should just give each team one (and only one) true super-max contract (like 70-80M/year, i.e. double the max) that only counts as a regular max against the salary cap. literally nobody is going to leave close to 200M over 4 years on the table.

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                        • Puffer wrote: View Post

                          Wow. Don't expect anybody on this board, or who reads it, to sign a contract with YOU. What happened to fullfilling the terms of your contract? Nobody was putting a gun to the head of any of these players when they signed their existing contracts. A player always has the option of refusing to play and then not collecting a cheque for however many years are left. It is nothing but entitlement to insist on getting paid, and then dictating where you will go.

                          I have no problem with Kawhi going to another team. He was a free agent. And more importantly, he played to his potential while with Toronto. He didn't mope, coast or try to poison the work environment. He got paid and was worth every penny. He came to Toronto because the Raptors offered San Antonio more than any other team, based on the Raptors perception of his value to him. That is a free market operating. Even the forced trade of Paul George to the Lakers isn't strictly tampering. Kawhi made his wishes known, Paul George was agreeable and the Lakers had the option of not making the trade.
                          This works both ways.

                          The Raptors agreed to a contract with DeRozan. They did not "fulfill" it by your arbitrary definition of what fulfilling a contract means and traded him against his wishes somewhere else. Players should not be forced to bend to the will of teams when teams do not have to bend to the will of players. They should act in their own interests the same way that teams do.

                          People have this really weird, slavemaster mentality towards athletes and it's even stronger in the NBA than other leagues for obvious reasons. These guys don't have to just stay put and do whatever fans or the teams want.

                          Comment


                          • slaw wrote: View Post

                            What? Absolutely no one is saying that. Players can go anywhere they want.... in free agency. Free agents can get together and pick a place to go. I haven't seen a single person opposed to that. What people are opposed to is players not honoring the contracts they sign and, two, third parties (other teams or their employees) conspiring with players under contract to break their current obligations.
                            Lol even when players leave in free agency people get angry about it. See LeBron to Miami and Durant to GS.

                            People do not want these guys to have ownership over their lives and careers.

                            And you keep saying they should not be able to demand trades. Why not? Teams are allowed to trade them at will if they can find a suitor. Why can players not demand a trade? By the way, the team doesn't HAVE to trade them if they demand a trade. Especially in the case where the player is still suiting up and playing for the team and not sabotaging them (this would then be an ACTUAL breach of your contract), I see no problem with requesting to be moved somewhere else.

                            If anything you're doing the team a fucking favor so they can get something for you before you just leave in free agency for nothing. I wish Bosh had demanded a trade so we could've gotten something for him instead of him just bouncing in 2010.

                            Comment


                            • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post

                              This works both ways.

                              The Raptors agreed to a contract with DeRozan. They did not "fulfill" it by your arbitrary definition of what fulfilling a contract means and traded him against his wishes somewhere else. Players should not be forced to bend to the will of teams when teams do not have to bend to the will of players. They should act in their own interests the same way that teams do.

                              People have this really weird, slavemaster mentality towards athletes and it's even stronger in the NBA than other leagues for obvious reasons. These guys don't have to just stay put and do whatever fans or the teams want.
                              The Slavemaster tangent is kinda lame Shaolin...

                              Still though 100% support the idea of these guys getting as much as they can where ever they can get it...

                              Comment


                              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post

                                Lol even when players leave in free agency people get angry about it. See LeBron to Miami and Durant to GS.

                                People do not want these guys to have ownership over their lives and careers.

                                And you keep saying they should not be able to demand trades. Why not? Teams are allowed to trade them at will if they can find a suitor. Why can players not demand a trade? By the way, the team doesn't HAVE to trade them if they demand a trade. Especially in the case where the player is still suiting up and playing for the team and not sabotaging them (this would then be an ACTUAL breach of your contract), I see no problem with requesting to be moved somewhere else.

                                If anything you're doing the team a fucking favor so they can get something for you before you just leave in free agency for nothing. I wish Bosh had demanded a trade so we could've gotten something for him instead of him just bouncing in 2010.
                                Wasn't Bosh a sign and trade and we got 2 picks from Miami?
                                All man. All amazing.

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