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  • Rudy Bargnani
    replied
    chris wrote: View Post
    i quite enjoyed this jackie mac piece on coaching in the player empowerment era.

    unbelievably, alvin gentry is strong against while kenny atkinson thinks it's great!
    Lol I see what you did there.
    Agreed Jackie Mac is great. Some nice raptors tidbits in there too.

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  • chris
    replied
    i quite enjoyed this jackie mac piece on coaching in the player empowerment era.

    unbelievably, alvin gentry is strong against while kenny atkinson thinks it's great!

    Leave a comment:


  • S.R.
    replied
    What I'm worried about as a fan is if the apparent increase in trade demands & players acting as covert GM's is that this will create a certain level of chaos re team building. An exec like Masai has a multiyear plan for his team and contract length is a critical piece of that. When players step in and start building their own teams while execs are also trying to build teams, you have a "cooks in the kitchen" problem that almost anyone with workplace experience is probably familiar with. You also have an increase in player turnover, which already feels really high with shorter max contract lengths and guys starting to sign 1 or 2 year deals instead of just max deals. This is especially a problem for casual fans. I'm a pretty casual football/baseball fan and I don't know who the hell is on my own teams most of the time because I'm not devoting the time needed to keep up with player movement. And the NBA has far more player movement than those leagues.

    Division of labour keeps the roles nice and clear. The execs build teams. Coaches coach, trainers train, players play. Now (a very select few) players are also team builders. Seems kind of messy but also inevitable as players push for more and more power in the player empowerment era. Star players have been more important than most coaches for decades already. The next step up is to the level of team exec. The ultimate power in these organizations is deciding who plays where.

    I don't know if the future will be fans being fans of players instead of franchises, but the precedent has been set and the league is already heading down this road and is trying to figure out if the direction is a good one or not.

    Lebron has set the precedent. No other GOAT played for as many franchises as he has. You used to have Russel = Celtics, Magic = Lakers, Jordan = Bulls etc., even if those guys played for 2 or 3 teams they generally spent their prime in one place which not only built a fan base and provided a historic narrative for franchises and the league, it allowed management to build a contender with a long window.

    Player trade demands are not always opposed by fans/media, as has been noted a big part of that is how the thing is handled overall by both sides. Everyone expects a certain level of etiquette. Expectations around that change all the time as sport culture changes. Trade demands are going to be more and more culturally acceptable.

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  • G__Deane
    replied
    Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post

    You do realize if not for superstars demanding trades, we likely never would've gotten one (at least not with a championship roster around them) right?

    To trade for one who doesn't want out we would've probably had to trade our entire team. The fact that Kawhi did want out created the perfect storm for us to take a gamble and get him. Ditto for OKC when they acquired Paul George.

    You can keep acting like this shit ruins the NBA, but even in your own damn interest the Raptors would never have been able to win the title without player power. If Kawhi wasn't allowed to ask for a trade he'd still be on the Spurs and we'd have been watching DeRozan go 3-20 against the Sixers after it took us 7 games to beat Orlando.
    Whether it's bad for the league doesn't change just because your own team benefitted from it....once

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  • MixxAOR
    replied
    Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post

    You do realize if not for superstars demanding trades, we likely never would've gotten one (at least not with a championship roster around them) right?

    To trade for one who doesn't want out we would've probably had to trade our entire team. The fact that Kawhi did want out created the perfect storm for us to take a gamble and get him. Ditto for OKC when they acquired Paul George.

    You can keep acting like this shit ruins the NBA, but even in your own damn interest the Raptors would never have been able to win the title without player power. If Kawhi wasn't allowed to ask for a trade he'd still be on the Spurs and we'd have been watching DeRozan go 3-20 against the Sixers after it took us 7 games to beat Orlando.
    if we're been unbiased that did just fuck up Spurs for years to come though no?

    Getting Kawhi was not even the same. He did feel like his health was in danger the way Spurs forced him to play. I can understand that. I'm not going to feel like a guy needs to play where there's obviously no trust anymore and teamamates are saying reckless shit. Even though you think that what we are saying is to make them into slaves.

    Kawhi got my respect because it was obvious from get go that he didn't want to end up in Toronto. Chris Haynes reporting he wasn't even going to report. He decided to honor his last year of his contract and be open minded. Him being like that allowed Toronto to win. But he could've said "this is not where I want to be. Let me get my value up and trade me midseason. You'll get something and I won't leave for nothing."

    Paul George leaving Indiana/OKC, Davis leaving for Lakers, VC leaving Toronto was just because winning basketball games got a little hard
    Last edited by MixxAOR; Sun Jul 28th, 2019, 02:52 PM.

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  • Shaolin Fantastic
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post

    Yeah it worked out for Raps. A lot of teams will not make that move. Thats why we got him just for Derozan and Poeltl
    You do realize if not for superstars demanding trades, we likely never would've gotten one (at least not with a championship roster around them) right?

    To trade for one who doesn't want out we would've probably had to trade our entire team. The fact that Kawhi did want out created the perfect storm for us to take a gamble and get him. Ditto for OKC when they acquired Paul George.

    You can keep acting like this shit ruins the NBA, but even in your own damn interest the Raptors would never have been able to win the title without player power. If Kawhi wasn't allowed to ask for a trade he'd still be on the Spurs and we'd have been watching DeRozan go 3-20 against the Sixers after it took us 7 games to beat Orlando.

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    inthepaint wrote: View Post

    Yeah when you think about it, theoretically there's nothing really holding Zion Williamson next year from saying "hey thanks for drafting me at number one, but I'd like to play in LA in 2020 with Lebron and AD please". It would sound crazy, but there wouldn't be a damn thing the Pelicans could do. System looks flimsy at the moment.
    Why not? Kobe didn’t want to play with Hornets so they traded him to Lakers. Lonzo and his dad were adamant about playing in LA. He lost his first round privileges because bigger fish in Lebron came. Whatever though. We’ll see this amazing league.

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  • MixxAOR
    replied
    Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

    Dude the raptors traded for a disgruntled star and immediately won an NBA championship. That’s good no?
    Yeah it worked out for Raps. A lot of teams will not make that move. Thats why we got him just for Derozan and Poeltl
    Last edited by MixxAOR; Sat Jul 27th, 2019, 11:16 PM.

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  • Rudy Bargnani
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    Last 2 guys went exactly where they wanted to. And with Kawhi and PG stories unfolding, no team will try to trade for disgruntled star.

    e.
    Dude the raptors traded for a disgruntled star and immediately won an NBA championship. That’s good no?

    Leave a comment:


  • inthepaint
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    Last 2 guys went exactly where they wanted to. And with Kawhi and PG stories unfolding, no team will try to trade for disgruntled star.

    Superstars already hold a lot of power in the league. Nobody is willingly trades them. But whatever give them GM privileges now. For some teams their only chance to build a team is through draft. Give stars more incentive to stay with team that drafted them by offering them more money. But fuck em now. But let’s see how great all this will be.
    Yeah when you think about it, theoretically there's nothing really holding Zion Williamson next year from saying "hey thanks for drafting me at number one, but I'd like to play in LA in 2020 with Lebron and AD please". It would sound crazy, but there wouldn't be a damn thing the Pelicans could do. System looks flimsy at the moment.

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    Last 2 guys went exactly where they wanted to. And with Kawhi and PG stories unfolding, no team will try to trade for disgruntled star.

    Superstars already hold a lot of power in the league. Nobody is willingly trades them. But whatever give them GM privileges now. For some teams their only chance to build a team is through draft. Give stars more incentive to stay with team that drafted them by offering them more money. But fuck em now. But let’s see how great all this will be.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shaolin Fantastic
    replied
    Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

    Oh I agree with you but I think that kind of reinforces Shaolin's point doesn't it? I mean Shai was probably frustrated and it reinforces to him that he should take control of his career as teams will always be willing to trade him if they can improve their roster. Won't that lead to more player empowerment?

    I mean I think you're both right. Player empowerment and taking control of one's career is ok. And it's ok for fans to be mad when a move happens that makes their team worse. To paraphrase the wire the game is the game. Period. In a league with a salary cap and bird rights and exceptions that allow teams to exceed the cap by 10's of millions of dollars it's going to lead to players and teams coming to agreements that are mutually beneficial: the team controls the asset, and a player maximizes their contract. If trades happen after that it is what it is regardless of who initiates it.
    I didn't say that fans aren't allowed to be mad about the decisions players (or teams) make.

    I said that the league shouldn't be taking measures to ban it or penalize players like many here are suggesting. There's no reason why players shouldn't be able to try to control their careers when teams are able to manipulate their careers. Whether that's through trades or free agency. Again, even as things currently are, players cannot even dictate where they are traded. They can only voice that they want to be traded.

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  • Rudy Bargnani
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post

    yeah Shai must be ecstatic that Paul George decided to live in LA.
    Oh I agree with you but I think that kind of reinforces Shaolin's point doesn't it? I mean Shai was probably frustrated and it reinforces to him that he should take control of his career as teams will always be willing to trade him if they can improve their roster. Won't that lead to more player empowerment?

    I mean I think you're both right. Player empowerment and taking control of one's career is ok. And it's ok for fans to be mad when a move happens that makes their team worse. To paraphrase the wire the game is the game. Period. In a league with a salary cap and bird rights and exceptions that allow teams to exceed the cap by 10's of millions of dollars it's going to lead to players and teams coming to agreements that are mutually beneficial: the team controls the asset, and a player maximizes their contract. If trades happen after that it is what it is regardless of who initiates it.

    Leave a comment:


  • inthepaint
    replied
    The ultimate goal of every team is to win a championship. Teams arguably need at least one top 10 player in the roster to win a championship. When a top 10 player asks to be traded out early in their contract, the team will usually get a good combination of picks/prospects, but the chances of said prospects turning into the very thing they lost (the top 10 player they need for a championship), is far from guaranteed.

    When a team trades a player away early in their contract, the player will get the guaranteed money regardless of where they play and regardless if they underperform.

    For a pre-established number of years in the contract, players get guaranteed money, but teams don't get the guaranteed talent. Fair or not, that's the system we have.

    Personally, I think that's unbalanced. Not necessarily from a player vs. team standpoint, but from a franchise vs. franchise standpoint. We don't have players asking out of LA to go play in Indianapolis, It's always the other way around. That's the true root of the unbalance. So in my opinion the most practical solution is to help the franchise being shafted (to maintain their competitiveness in relation to the other franchises), rather than penalizing the player.

    In the real world, restricting/penalizing players won't work (even if they deserved it, wouldn't get past the players association). Best suggestion I heard here is giving the franchise some large/long term cap exception/increase, which would give them more flexibility to attract & sign top end talent in the future.

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

    This is a good point. Do you think OKC prefers Durant playing out his contract honourably or getting 5 picks and Shai for Paul George cause he asked for a trade?
    yeah Shai must be ecstatic that Paul George decided to live in LA.

    Leave a comment:

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