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  • Apollo wrote: View Post

    To clarify, I don't agree with Davis at all and I'm not trying to defend his view but what I'm saying is the NBA has opened up to protests on one topic for what I think is obvious non-humanitarian reasons. It was unreasonable of them to expect it to be quarantined to that one topic though.

    Of course Davis was protesting. He's against masks and cut his mask, that's clearly a protest. Its a political statement because masks are a hot topic in his country's affairs and his organization's affairs.
    I mean..gotta disagree.

    Protesting the murder of black people is a reasonable and justifiable thing to do. It’s a freaking crime. Protesting against science is not.

    But also, maybe TD is just a stupid kid and we move on.

    Comment


    • slaw wrote: View Post

      I was wearing a mask inFebruary. Were you? Did you wear a mask last flu season like I did? No? Why not? Do you hate science? Again, la la land. Same people who were telling everyone masks didn’t work 3 months ago now think they are miracle coverings. Lol.

      edit: anyway, Davis should be wearing one cause he agreed to when he went in there. The efficacy of it doesn’t really matter. But the actual real world effect of all this is 0. And anyone who hasn’t gone insane knows this intuitively.
      I mean this as a polite and respectful question and I do really enjoy your posts.

      When the scientific evidence changes, my behaviour changes. Isn’t that what one should do? Once evidence presented itself that wearing a mask was useful it made sense to do so. Taiwan did it early and hey good for them.
      There is very limited scientific evidence that suggests wearing a mask during flu season Is effective.

      Curious how you balance criticizing Canada‘a view on masks vs USA’s ineffective approach. My sense is you don’t like Trudeau yet like Trump. Perhaps I’m wrong and again just meant as a sincere question: How do you criticize Trudeau for being “late” to the mask game yet not mention Trump being months later to the party?

      Comment


      • --Wearing masks indoors is a good thing. It's a simple, cheap measure that slows the spread of a contagious illness, without affecting people's ability to work, live and interact with each other.

        --Shutting down business indefinitely, closing remote hiking trails, giving tickets to families rollerblading on empty parking lots, counting heart attack deaths as covid deaths on asymptomatic patients that happened to test positive post-mortem, not including age/co-condition while reporting hospital data, saying it's just like HIV etc... are all either hysteria or politically motivated. None of that helps convince people to engage in genuine, well-intended efforts to find a balance between keeping everyone healthy, employed, happy, and free.

        --Whether or not Davis agree or disagree with the two statements above is irrelevant though. He's got a job, and his workplace has a policy (which is to wear masks, even if it's just really for optics, since everyone is playing a contact sport all the time and getting frequently tested). If he doesn't like the policy, he should take it up internally with his employer. From there, there's only 3 outcomes: he abides to it, he quits his job, or the employer makes an exception just for him

        --As a fan, I personally don't have time or interest on these player-league quarrels. If I don't like wearing long sleeve shirts but my company requires it, my clients couldn't care less about the conversations I'd have with my employer about it, they're just focused on the service/product. So basically, like others said here, I just want some good 'n' old basketball without all these distractions.
        2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

        Comment


        • Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

          I mean..gotta disagree.

          Protesting the murder of black people is a reasonable and justifiable thing to do. It’s a freaking crime. Protesting against science is not.

          But also, maybe TD is just a stupid kid and we move on.
          Was he protesting science? Unpack that for us. All I know is he protested the mask being forced on people. Is this a constitutional matter for him? I don't know his full stance and I missed where science has reached an irrefutable conclusion on the effectiveness of masks.

          Also, where is the rule book on protesting? And for that matter how do you decide what is reasonable and why are you the authority on it?

          Of course murder is bad and protesting hate or murder is honorable but who draws the line in the sand on what is ok to protest? It was only a few years ago that kneeling might get you cancelled and now not kneeling might get you cancelled.

          Comment


          • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
            Dismal TV ratings... link?
            Maybe he's talking about earlier in the year? Ratings were dipping, possibly for a couple reasons. One is that peak Lebron was super popular. When you've got an MJ or Lebron headlining the league, ratings go up. Now we've got sunset Lebron and he's not the same draw.

            The other dynamic they're terrible at measuring is how much illegal streaming is siphoning off viewership at the younger end. The NBA needs a better, more affordable, centralized streaming solution (cheaper League Pass without the blackouts) because the youngest generation kids are not signing up for 4 cable packages and 5 streaming services just to get the games they want.

            Very brief look at restart ratings, they're huge - https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-tn...eason-restart/
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

            Comment


            • Apollo wrote: View Post

              Was he protesting science? Unpack that for us. All I know is he protested the mask being forced on people. Is this a constitutional matter for him? I don't know his full stance and I missed where science has reached an irrefutable conclusion on the effectiveness of masks.

              Also, where is the rule book on protesting? And for that matter how do you decide what is reasonable and why are you the authority on it?

              Of course murder is bad and protesting hate or murder is honorable but who draws the line in the sand on what is ok to protest? It was only a few years ago that kneeling might get you cancelled and now not kneeling might get you cancelled.
              The difference is Davis was 'protesting' a league (and effectively team) policy re: wearing a mask. That makes it a team (and league) issue.

              Think Masai and Webster would have had a talk if Davis had an IG post about the moon landing or immunizations & autism? Highly unlikely.
              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

              Comment


              • The league wouldn't even let the players put their own messages on the jerseys. That tells you all you need to know about their sincerity in what they're doing.

                Comment


                • Apollo wrote: View Post

                  Was he protesting science? Unpack that for us. All I know is he protested the mask being forced on people. Is this a constitutional matter for him? I don't know his full stance and I missed where science has reached an irrefutable conclusion on the effectiveness of masks.

                  Also, where is the rule book on protesting? And for that matter how do you decide what is reasonable and why are you the authority on it?

                  Of course murder is bad and protesting hate or murder is honorable but who draws the line in the sand on what is ok to protest? It was only a few years ago that kneeling might get you cancelled and now not kneeling might get you cancelled.
                  Nothing is irrefutable, but it's pretty damn close to conclusive that wearing masks are possibly the biggest bang for the buck habit changes that we can do, as a group, to stop the spread. So yeah, TD is protesting the recommendations of science. Here's just a small sample of the research & "evidence" that you're looking for:

                  https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...earch-evidence

                  In terms of the rules on protesting... TD should have thought of that before he signed up to go into the bubble. Apparently, there's like a 170 page manual that the NBA put out and one would hope that TD and his agent should have reviewed all of that before signing up.

                  Like Rudy B said... TD isn't protesting police brutality against innocent citizens, he's protesting against a private organizations's group health directive that he agreed to. Even then, TD is not being singled out here, and he's already agreed to a contract with a private entity to abide by a mutually agreed upon set of rules. Davis is the one who is now breaking those rules by protesting while inside the bubble. That's apples and oranges in comparison to a normal public protest.



                  Comment


                  • golden wrote: View Post

                    Nothing is irrefutable, but it's pretty damn close to conclusive that wearing masks are possibly the biggest bang for the buck habit changes that we can do, as a group, to stop the spread. So yeah, TD is protesting the recommendations of science. Here's just a small sample of the research & "evidence" that you're looking for:

                    https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...earch-evidence

                    In terms of the rules on protesting... TD should have thought of that before he signed up to go into the bubble. Apparently, there's like a 170 page manual that the NBA put out and one would hope that TD and his agent should have reviewed all of that before signing up.

                    Like Rudy B said... TD isn't protesting police brutality against innocent citizens, he's protesting against a private organizations's group health directive that he agreed to. Even then, TD is not being singled out here, and he's already agreed to a contract with a private entity to abide by a mutually agreed upon set of rules. Davis is the one who is now breaking those rules by protesting while inside the bubble. That's apples and oranges in comparison to a normal public protest.


                    He's not protesting science. You're imposing your views on him and concluding that he is protesting against science. Do you really think he's against science or is he misinformed or confused?

                    My understanding of the general argument against masks in the US is that it's against their rights. That's number one. Beyond that things diverge into a bunch of different camps. You don't think a protest based on rights is just? People protest against all sorts of things.
                    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Aug 4th, 2020, 04:00 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      He's not protesting science. You're imposing your views on him and concluding that he is protesting against science. Do you really think he's against science or is he misinformed or confused?

                      My understanding of the general argument against masks in the US is that it's against their rights. That's number one. Beyond that things diverge into a bunch of different camps. You don't think a protest based on rights is just? People protest against all sorts of things.

                      ​​​​​​My view on protesting in general is that it should not make it into business models where people are paying money to escape the day to day pains of life. My view is that it's in the NBA in an insincere way and it's likely here to stay and will expand into other avenues that are not life and death matters. TD was first up and I am curious how this ends up being dealt with in terms of consequences.
                      Not sure where the disconnect is here, because we're going in circles. TD is protesting against a policy, backed by science, that his employer believes is beneficial for all employees. So he is indeed protesting "the science" that the NBA believes in. He can quit his job, or in the case of the NBA, he could opt out of the bubble without penalty, which is a gracious option offered his employer.

                      And TD can continue protesting the conspiracy, if he so chooses... outside of the bubble. TD has no case here. He's just being stupid or regretting his decision to sell out his principles. He willingly and willfully gave up his right to protest when he signed off on the NBA bubble rules. You can't have it both ways.

                      Comment


                      • Apollo wrote: View Post

                        You don't think that's an overreaction?

                        First he's in a bubble and has been for quite sometime, far longer than almost everyone in this thread has ever had to endure.

                        Second these guys are bumping and grinding up in each others faces in as close proximity as any popular night club pre-covid. One can't practice safe social distancing and play basketball... And they're hugging each other after the games.

                        He didn't sneak in and out of the bubble, that would be sabotage. He cut a hold in his mask to make a political statement. This is the sort of thing the league has opened itself up to by allowing political statements. He won't be the last person to offend someone with a statement and I don't think this makes him a bad guy no matter my views on masks. Can you see how where the league has headed might confuse the situation?
                        The masks are not to protect players from each other. They are to protect players and support staff from each other. You know, the support staff that don't get consistent testing. Risking exposing yourself any more than necessary when you know you are going to be, as you say, bumping and grinding up against your teammates and leaguemates, is actively sabotaging the safety protocols in place.

                        You can argue all you like about whether the safety protocols in place are effective, or necessary. Maybe they are neither! But either way, the description still applies - he's actively sabotaging those safety protocols no matter their efficacy. And I agree that leaving the bubble would be worse! But so would murdering someone, and that doesn't mean nothing matters short of murder.

                        You can make a statement without actively sabotaging safety protocols. Heck, you can make a statement while actively sabotaging safety protocols. Just don't get all surprised when people aren't happy that you did so. And don't get all up in arms when someone, you know, uses words to accurately describe exactly what you are doing.

                        The stupidity of his statement doesn't help, but is largely irrelevant here.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • Davis is a product of the misguided leadership coming from his government. If your President is treating it half assed why would there be buy in from the public? You plant of seed of doubt and people are going to run with it.

                          Our leadership (Trudeau and Ford [I did not vote for either of them]) did a great job of conveying one single constant message, and we bought in for the most part. We are seeing the benefits of social distancing.

                          We took drastic measures to ease the load on our unprepared health care system. We had o do it after seeing what happened in Italy, Spain and New York city. I'm not sure we'll have to make the same concessions again.

                          I think the guidance not to wear masks at the beginning was related to the shortage of medical masks. If they had advised to wear masks people would have hoarded them, just as they did other products. People wouldn't have just limited themselves to non-medical masks. You still see the occasional person strolling around in N95s now.

                          All in all, I feel for TD and the rest of the US. Covid 19 has become political, it's more about the economy than protecting the public. They have a solid message coming for Fauci, but then he gets undermined by the leadership. They have so much disinformation coming from all sides what do you believe?

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                          • And I've heard that unless they are in their room, they are to be wearing masks. I can see how that's a mixed message, go out and play basketball for 2.5 hours without wearing masks, but as soon as you leave the court, put them back on.

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                            • golden wrote: View Post

                              Not sure where the disconnect is here, because we're going in circles. TD is protesting against a policy, backed by science, that his employer believes is beneficial for all employees. So he is indeed protesting "the science" that the NBA believes in. He can quit his job, or in the case of the NBA, he could opt out of the bubble without penalty, which is a gracious option offered his employer.

                              And TD can continue protesting the conspiracy, if he so chooses... outside of the bubble. TD has no case here. He's just being stupid or regretting his decision to sell out his principles. He willingly and willfully gave up his right to protest when he signed off on the NBA bubble rules. You can't have it both ways.
                              Wait, what is 'backed by science' ?

                              Comment


                              • saints91 wrote: View Post
                                Davis is a product of the misguided leadership coming from his government. If your President is treating it half assed why would there be buy in from the public? You plant of seed of doubt and people are going to run with it.

                                Our leadership (Trudeau and Ford [I did not vote for either of them]) did a great job of conveying one single constant message, and we bought in for the most part. We are seeing the benefits of social distancing.

                                We took drastic measures to ease the load on our unprepared health care system. We had o do it after seeing what happened in Italy, Spain and New York city. I'm not sure we'll have to make the same concessions again.

                                I think the guidance not to wear masks at the beginning was related to the shortage of medical masks. If they had advised to wear masks people would have hoarded them, just as they did other products. People wouldn't have just limited themselves to non-medical masks. You still see the occasional person strolling around in N95s now.

                                All in all, I feel for TD and the rest of the US. Covid 19 has become political, it's more about the economy than protecting the public. They have a solid message coming for Fauci, but then he gets undermined by the leadership. They have so much disinformation coming from all sides what do you believe?
                                There is an interview that the President did (it's on HBO but I think its viewable on youtube now). It's actually pretty sad (and pretty funny depending on your perspective on life). He's so unaware of what is really happening in his own country and is really just making everything so political. Our PM is an asshat but at least he got the job done here. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

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