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  • #46
    MACK11 wrote: View Post
    TOP 10 this season:

    1. James Haren (No D)
    2. DeMar DeRozan
    3. Dwayne Wade
    4. Arron Afflalo
    5. Jamal Crawford
    6. Klay Thompson
    7. Monta Ellis
    8. Brad Beal
    9. Manu Ginobili
    10. Wes Matthews
    So happy that someone finally has these guys in relevant conversation. Also Klay is a better defender than people think.

    My top 10 (no Kobe, he would be #1)

    1) Wade
    2) Manu
    3) Stephenson
    4) Beal
    5) Thompson
    6) Matthews
    7) Harden
    8) Waiters
    9) DeRozan
    10) Crawford


    Before I get flamed, let me explain.

    1 - If the player also played relevant levels of defense, they were automatically put ahead of players that didn't.

    For example, Wes Matthews is no where near Harden's offensive prowess, but his ability to play defense still makes him more of a plus player than Harden, hence a higher ranking.

    Manu and Wade are not prototypical shut down defenders, however they were both plus defenders on amazing defensive teams, plus their body of work just puts them on top of all the young guys on that list ftm.

    2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)

    EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
    Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Sat May 24, 2014, 03:54 PM.

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    • #47
      OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
      So happy that someone finally has these guys in relevant conversation. Also Klay is a better defender than people think.

      My top 10 (no Kobe, he would be #1)

      1) Wade
      2) Manu
      3) Stephenson
      4) Beal
      5) Thompson
      6) Matthews
      7) Harden
      8) Waiters
      9) DeRozan
      10) Crawford


      Before I get flamed, let me explain.

      1 - If the player also played relevant levels of defense, they were automatically put ahead of players that didn't.

      For example, Wes Matthews is no where near Harden's offensive prowess, but his ability to play defense still makes him more of a plus player than Harden, hence a higher ranking.

      Manu and Wade are not prototypical shut down defenders, however they were both plus defenders on amazing defensive teams, plus their body of work just puts them on top of all the young guys on that list ftm.

      2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)

      EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
      Demar had higher Defensive Win Shares than anyone on your list not named Lance Stephenson, AND a higher DRtg than Thompson and Harden.

      Comment


      • #48
        OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
        So happy that someone finally has these guys in relevant conversation. Also Klay is a better defender than people think.

        My top 10 (no Kobe, he would be #1)

        1) Wade
        2) Manu
        3) Stephenson
        4) Beal
        5) Thompson
        6) Matthews
        7) Harden
        8) Waiters
        9) DeRozan
        10) Crawford


        Before I get flamed, let me explain.

        1 - If the player also played relevant levels of defense, they were automatically put ahead of players that didn't.

        For example, Wes Matthews is no where near Harden's offensive prowess, but his ability to play defense still makes him more of a plus player than Harden, hence a higher ranking.

        Manu and Wade are not prototypical shut down defenders, however they were both plus defenders on amazing defensive teams, plus their body of work just puts them on top of all the young guys on that list ftm.

        2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)

        EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
        What about being lazy and a poison to the locker room? If the criteria is overall how good they are then DD has to be above Waiters, and if it's just last season he especially has to. DeMar is a better playmaker than Waiters just for the simple fact that defences have to lock in on him more and that creates opportunities for other players. The only argument I can see for Waiters over DeMar is number of game winners or height of jumpshot (Waiter's jumpshot has the highest arc in the league apparently).

        Dragic is essentially a PG as well, the Suns just interchanged between him and Bledsoe who was bringing the ball up.

        Comment


        • #49
          OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
          So happy that someone finally has these guys in relevant conversation. Also Klay is a better defender than people think.

          My top 10 (no Kobe, he would be #1)

          1) Wade
          2) Manu
          3) Stephenson
          4) Beal
          5) Thompson
          6) Matthews
          7) Harden
          8) Waiters
          9) DeRozan
          10) Crawford


          Before I get flamed, let me explain.

          1 - If the player also played relevant levels of defense, they were automatically put ahead of players that didn't.

          For example, Wes Matthews is no where near Harden's offensive prowess, but his ability to play defense still makes him more of a plus player than Harden, hence a higher ranking.

          Manu and Wade are not prototypical shut down defenders, however they were both plus defenders on amazing defensive teams, plus their body of work just puts them on top of all the young guys on that list ftm.

          2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)

          EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
          Who you rather have on your team, Harden or Matthews? be honest lol.
          Mamba Mentality

          Comment


          • #50
            joey wrote: View Post
            demar had higher defensive win shares than anyone on your list not named lance stephenson, and a higher drtg than thompson and harden.
            wtf?
            The name's Bond, James Bond.

            Comment


            • #51
              RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
              wtf?
              Ekhm "team defence" cough cough.... but that argument has been beaten to death so no point... im just gonna go WTF and move on too

              Comment


              • #52
                Joey wrote: View Post
                Demar had higher Defensive Win Shares than anyone on your list not named Lance Stephenson, AND a higher DRtg than Thompson and Harden.
                Can you honestly look me in the eye and say DD is a better defender than Wes Matthews, Klay Thompson or Bradley Beal? Or Wade or Ginobli?

                Did you know DD (3.0) has a higher DWS than Tony Allen (2.1) and Ross (2.2)? And is nearly at the same level as Batum (3.1) and Igoudala (3.1)?

                Did you know that defensive metrics are completely useless?

                Wish people would stop using defensive metrics to defend DD and rely on their basketball intelligence to come to an accurate conclusion. Advanced metrics have their limits, please don't lose sight of that.

                Raptorsnz wrote: View Post
                What about being lazy and a poison to the locker room? If the criteria is overall how good they are then DD has to be above Waiters, and if it's just last season he especially has to. DeMar is a better playmaker than Waiters just for the simple fact that defences have to lock in on him more and that creates opportunities for other players. The only argument I can see for Waiters over DeMar is number of game winners or height of jumpshot (Waiter's jumpshot has the highest arc in the league apparently).

                Dragic is essentially a PG as well, the Suns just interchanged between him and Bledsoe who was bringing the ball up.
                - Dragic is an interesting guy because he played both extremely well.

                - Waiters can get to the rim WAAAAAAAAAAY easier than DeMar because he can do a thing called dribbling and his ability to pass to the bigs in the paint far surpasses DeMar's ability. These are things that I highly value from guards (as well as shooting 3s), which is why I put Waiters ahead of DD. There are things that DD does better than Waiters, but just not areas that I think are as valuable to a team's success.

                - Waiters also is not a "lazy" player, he runs hard when he is on the court....DD often floats but you never grill him for being "lazy". The attitude thing is good and bad, not unlike Lowry. He is competitive and demands the very best from his teammates and himself, which leads to conflict. Dispute born out of competitiveness is good, when it is born out of ignorance and self-righteousness it is bad.

                TRex wrote: View Post
                Who you rather have on your team, Harden or Matthews? be honest lol.
                In a vacuum (1v1) I would take Harden hands down.

                But in terms of how each player fits within their team and affects their teams performance I would have to argue that Wesley is a better winner than Harden. For example if I am the Blazers, I think Wes is a better fit beside Lillard than Harden would be, therefor to the Blazers, Matthews > Harden.

                My proof: Blazers/Rockets series. Who won that?

                Comment


                • #53
                  OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                  Can you honestly look me in the eye and say DD is a better defender than Wes Matthews, Klay Thompson or Bradley Beal? Or Wade or Ginobli?

                  Did you know DD (3.0) has a higher DWS than Tony Allen (2.1) and Ross (2.2)? And is nearly at the same level as Batum (3.1) and Igoudala (3.1)?

                  Did you know that defensive metrics are completely useless?

                  Wish people would stop using defensive metrics to defend DD and rely on their basketball intelligence to come to an accurate conclusion. Advanced metrics have their limits, please don't lose sight of that.



                  - Dragic is an interesting guy because he played both extremely well.

                  - Waiters can get to the rim WAAAAAAAAAAY easier than DeMar because he can do a thing called dribbling and his ability to pass to the bigs in the paint far surpasses DeMar's ability. These are things that I highly value from guards (as well as shooting 3s), which is why I put Waiters ahead of DD. There are things that DD does better than Waiters, but just not areas that I think are as valuable to a team's success.

                  - Waiters also is not a "lazy" player, he runs hard when he is on the court....DD often floats but you never grill him for being "lazy". The attitude thing is good and bad, not unlike Lowry. He is competitive and demands the very best from his teammates and himself, which leads to conflict. Dispute born out of competitiveness is good, when it is born out of ignorance and self-righteousness it is bad.



                  In a vacuum (1v1) I would take Harden hands down.

                  But in terms of how each player fits within their team and affects their teams performance I would have to argue that Wesley is a better winner than Harden. For example if I am the Blazers, I think Wes is a better fit beside Lillard than Harden would be, therefor to the Blazers, Matthews > Harden.

                  My proof: Blazers/Rockets series. Who won that?
                  Nobody here ever defends DD. And honestly, your list is all wrong. Rank the top SG's. No way an all star like DeRozan is ranked lower than 'Dion Waiters'. Your list is going by defense and that would be okay if we were talking about the best defensive SG's but we're not.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Jordan Evans wrote: View Post
                    Nobody here ever defends DD. And honestly, your list is all wrong. Rank the top SG's. No way an all star like DeRozan is ranked lower than 'Dion Waiters'. Your list is going by defense and that would be okay if we were talking about the best defensive SG's but we're not.
                    I believe the title of this thread is "Rank YOUR top SG"

                    In MY list, Waiters is better than DD.

                    Deal with a differing opinion.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                      I believe the title of this thread is "Rank YOUR top SG"

                      In MY list, Waiters is better than DD.

                      Deal with a differing opinion.
                      Put it this way, if you drop waiters in the place of derozan on this team, they wouldnt crack 34 wins. Put demar on the cavs and they get atleast 4 more wins. LAST season there is no way waiters is better than DD. DD was obviously better
                      I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                        Can you honestly look me in the eye and say DD is a better defender than Wes Matthews, Klay Thompson or Bradley Beal? Or Wade or Ginobli?

                        Did you know DD (3.0) has a higher DWS than Tony Allen (2.1) and Ross (2.2)? And is nearly at the same level as Batum (3.1) and Igoudala (3.1)?
                        I think he is at least as good a defender as Matthews, KThompson and BBeal, ya.

                        OldSkoolCool wrote:
                        Did you know that defensive metrics are completely useless?
                        By useless do you mean "Don't reflect your opinion"?

                        OldSkoolCool wrote:
                        Wish people would stop using defensive metrics to defend DD and rely on their basketball intelligence to come to an accurate conclusion. Advanced metrics have their limits, please don't lose sight of that.
                        And your biased opinions have their limits.
                        Perhaps Demar just IS a better defender than you give him credit for. Perhaps.
                        No, he's not a world stopper; but he's also not the useless piece of shit you make him out to be.

                        While you're criticizing my basketball intelligence, yours is seriously being called into question by your conclusion that Dion Waiters is better than Derozan.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Jordan Evans wrote: View Post
                          Nobody here ever defends DD.
                          Do you have me on ignore? LOL That's like all I ever do around here!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                            So happy that someone finally has these guys in relevant conversation. Also Klay is a better defender than people think.

                            My top 10 (no Kobe, he would be #1)

                            1) Wade
                            2) Manu
                            3) Stephenson
                            4) Beal
                            5) Thompson
                            6) Matthews
                            7) Harden
                            8) Waiters
                            9) DeRozan
                            10) Crawford


                            Before I get flamed, let me explain.

                            1 - If the player also played relevant levels of defense, they were automatically put ahead of players that didn't.

                            For example, Wes Matthews is no where near Harden's offensive prowess, but his ability to play defense still makes him more of a plus player than Harden, hence a higher ranking.

                            Manu and Wade are not prototypical shut down defenders, however they were both plus defenders on amazing defensive teams, plus their body of work just puts them on top of all the young guys on that list ftm.

                            2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)

                            EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
                            At least the other 6 guys you ranked ahead of DD you can make an argument for them.

                            Wade and Manu are all-time greats obviously.

                            Lance has that all-around game with rebounding, assists and defense.

                            Bradley Beal can defend at a high level and shoot the 3 (although he's less efficient than DeRozan)

                            Klay Thompson is a better defender and shoots the basketball better.

                            Wes Matthews is an elite defender and shooter, also does a good job at other things as well. Great finisher too

                            Harden is an offensive superstar.

                            But Waiters man? Come on. Like there is just no argument for Waiters being better than DeRozan. This is where you just totally lose me man it doesn't make sense. He's less efficient, isn't as good of a playmaker (yes he has nicer handles but doesn't really do a lot of positive things with them except turn it over and freeze out teammates), he's a locker room problem, he's a minus defender, etc. Like dude come the fuck on for real.

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                            • #59
                              I do wonder why so many love Lance though, when he over dribbles and freezes out his teammates more than DeMar could ever hope to.

                              This guy has Iverson's mentality with the actual ability of a much, much lesser player. That is a problem imo.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Joey wrote: View Post
                                I think he is at least as good a defender as Matthews, KThompson and BBeal, ya.



                                By useless do you mean "Don't reflect your opinion"?



                                And your biased opinions have their limits.
                                Perhaps Demar just IS a better defender than you give him credit for. Perhaps.
                                No, he's not a world stopper; but he's also not the useless piece of shit you make him out to be.

                                While you're criticizing my basketball intelligence, yours is seriously being called into question by your conclusion that Dion Waiters is better than Derozan.
                                Defensive metrics are very flawed. DD is not as good of a defender as the metrics say. If you think he is way better than Tony Allen, or as good as Igoudala and Batum because the metrics say so....well I don't know what to say.

                                Waiters is an opinion. I think he will be the better SG of the two by next season. He is extremely talented and carried a pretty miserable Cleveland team whenever Kyrie was down for the count. Waiters is a better shooter (who suffers from bad shots, like DD), passer, ball handler and driver than DD. I suggest watching some game footage of his ability to pass and compare it to DD's and form an opinion.

                                As for Dion's "Poisonous Locker-room".



                                Also another player that should be in conversations on that list is Kyle Korver. Dude put together a fantastic season. Though I don't know how much time he played as a SF

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