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Trading the 20th pick?

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  • #31
    I'd rather trade down to get 2 later first round picks as players in that range seems really inter-changeable (is that a word in English?), than loose assets to draft a similar ceiling prospect.

    Also, dead @ Cory Joseph suggestion.
    Myself (March 2014):
    The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

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    • #32
      Not much has changed in my view on trading the pick:

      As soon as the season ended, the threads started for changes for next season - which is, like, awesome because what are we suppose to do now?

      One thing that alarms me is the number of people saying trade #20 for "player".

      Here is why I think that is a horrible way to go:

      1) Colangelo. Have people already forgotten? If you have talent in identifying talent that will succeed at the NBA level, which both Weltman and Ujiri have and have built their careers upon, then you should be able to find talent in the first round.

      2) Value. Rookie contracts tend to offer the best bang for the buck.

      3) Flexibility. The rookie contracts offer a lot of talent relative to the money tying up a roster spot with value and allowing cap space for other areas such as facilitating trades or free agency.

      4) Time. A first round draft pick could be "stuck" with the franchise for 8-9 years due to restricted free agency. What better way to build than multiple, multiple seasons of development together.

      5) Baggage. A big part of the draft is personal and injury background checks. You get a feel for who you are bringing in. When you trade for guys who've been in the league - yes you do the same - but they might be coming from a culture of less desirable traits such as me-first, losing, etc. When you draft a guy you can mold him in to the professional you expect him to be.


      Now if you can trade for Kevin Love or Al Horford or *insert big name here*, well lets do that. But if you're talking someone unproven and still unknown at NBA level (say, Harrison Barnes?) forget about it! First round picks are too valuable in the new CBA of the NBA.

      http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post334080

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      • #33
        mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
        Not much has changed in my view on trading the pick:
        For me, the 20th pick isn't about finding another Evan Fourneir or Kenneth Faried. Great to have another good solid rotation player. But how does that change the fortunes of the Raptors to get over the hump in the East and be able to contend with the elite and become a contender themselves? We already have a team full of decent players.

        We need to be able to convert those assets into stars. It's the same equation we've been talking about for years. You win championships with stars, not with decent players. Sure we can draft another decent player and play the waiting game until an opportunity strikes to to land a big fish but there is no guarantee that opportunity ever comes.

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        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post

          We need to be able to convert those assets into stars.
          Internal development?

          We can than grow them into stars

          OR

          Make them look good enough that a team will jump on them for a legitimate star.

          The 20th pick is worth much less than a player drafted 20th who has played in the NBA and show flashes of brilliance.
          Myself (March 2014):
          The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

          Comment


          • #35
            Mediumcore wrote: View Post
            For me, the 20th pick isn't about finding another Evan Fourneir or Kenneth Faried. Great to have another good solid rotation player. But how does that change the fortunes of the Raptors to get over the hump in the East and be able to contend with the elite and become a contender themselves? We already have a team full of decent players.

            We need to be able to convert those assets into stars. It's the same equation we've been talking about for years. You win championships with stars, not with decent players. Sure we can draft another decent player and play the waiting game until an opportunity strikes to to land a big fish but there is no guarantee that opportunity ever comes.
            Unless you sign Wade, Bosh, and Lebron-type talent all at the same time, you convert the assets in to stars when cashing in your assets doesn't leave you lacking assets.

            Houston really is a good example with Harden. They traded for him with plenty of assets left to deal and lots of cap space to maneuver. I'm not sure the Raptors have enough assets to make a trade that pushes them over the hump of contender status.

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            • #36
              mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
              Unless you sign Wade, Bosh, and Lebron-type talent all at the same time, you convert the assets in to stars when cashing in your assets doesn't leave you lacking assets.

              Houston really is a good example with Harden. They traded for him with plenty of assets left to deal and lots of cap space to maneuver. I'm not sure the Raptors have enough assets to make a trade that pushes them over the hump of contender status.
              We have two players on rookie contracts that are solid starters, multiple first rounders in upcoming drafts, two other starters that are on pretty good contracts and locked up for a few years each (DD, Amir), a bit of cap space I think, and I don't know the situation with our expiring contracts but I think we have some of those too.

              I really like what Houston was able to do, but looking at the NBA landscape back then when teams were desparately trying to escape the luxury tax and to the situation with Dwight and looking at the landscape now, I don't know if the same opportunities are there for a massive tear down and instant rebuild like they did. Opportunity has to play a role in the decision as well or else you will just be sitting atop a of assets with nobody to deal with.

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              • #37
                Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                We have two players on rookie contracts that are solid starters, multiple first rounders in upcoming drafts, two other starters that are on pretty good contracts and locked up for a few years each (DD, Amir), a bit of cap space I think, and I don't know the situation with our expiring contracts but I think we have some of those too.

                I really like what Houston was able to do, but looking at the NBA landscape back then when teams were desparately trying to escape the luxury tax and to the situation with Dwight and looking at the landscape now, I don't know if the same opportunities are there for a massive tear down and instant rebuild like they did. Opportunity has to play a role in the decision as well or else you will just be sitting atop a of assets with nobody to deal with.
                Houston never went through a massive tear down. They missed the playoffs 3 straight years but that was a function of playing in the west. They have not finished below .500 since 2006.

                The Raptors assets currently under contract need to be kept. That is my point. You don't have extra rotational pieces that you can trade away to plug holes in one place without creating equal or larger holes in another place. The type of player you are going to get back for #20 is unlikely to be a difference maker. #15 returned the Pacers Hill but they already had Hibbert and George to build around (rookie deal guys) and were about to sign David West in free agency. One could make the argument that Hibbert/PG and JV/DD are equals but both of those guys were on rookie deals and the Pacers had a tonne of cap space at their immediate disposal.

                My opinion on trading draft picks is you only do it when your core is set and you're trying to bolster your bench or a 5th starter. The Raptors have a core but it is still developing and I don't think complete.

                The great thing about rookie contracts is the cost relative to talent. They are generally, when they work out, a huge bargain... and if they don't, when they are mid first round and later, they aren't so much more than a minimum contract to cause serious grief. If Raps ever wish to be running for a big free agent fish, they could use as many rookie contracts as possible to maximize roster talent and minimize payroll hit.

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                • #38
                  OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                  Haywards is 8'8" 220 and is pretty quick. I have always thought he was a SF.
                  He would want a starters role so one of dd or flight 31 would have to be sent to the bench/moved.

                  Not worth itttt!!!!! I'll take either of them over Hayward anyday. Let's just draft our own pick rather trade it for other decent players
                  I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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                  • #39
                    That Patty Mills and Cory Joseph are above Kyrie Irving and John Wall in WS/48 says a lot more about Gregg Popovich than any of those four players.

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                    • #40
                      Scraptor wrote: View Post
                      That Patty Mills and Cory Joseph are above Kyrie Irving and John Wall in WS/48 says a lot more about Gregg Popovich than any of those four players.
                      to be honest, it says a lot more about WS. WS is a completely flawed tool to compare role players to top options, it does a very poor job of that.

                      it's great for comparing top options among themselves though
                      "Bruno?
                      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                      He's terrible."

                      -Superjudge, 7/23

                      Hope you're wrong.

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                      • #41
                        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        Damn didn't know he was that tall
                        He's huge man. Did you know Utah has to use a weird camera angle to be able to fit Hayward in the frame? It's like the reverse aspect of the Raptors baseline logo.lol

                        Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                        He would want a starters role so one of dd or flight 31 would have to be sent to the bench/moved.

                        Not worth itttt!!!!! I'll take either of them over Hayward anyday. Let's just draft our own pick rather trade it for other decent players
                        I agree

                        I was just saying that Hayward is capable of playing SF after a poster was saying he was too small.

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                        • #42
                          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                          Whose played more minutes in the NBA though? I'm not that high on Joseph or JJ, but I'm not mad about that trade or anything.
                          Does it matter? He's in one of the best systems in the nba if not the best. He's also a great character who works hard. He even asked Pop to send him to the D-League so he could get some ice time and develop. He's just been to the finals, and will most likely get back there and hopefully win a ring. He's also one of the important players of the team atm, guarding Westbroock. While you don't see much of his play, he showed it last year at the FIBA Americas where he was the leader of the Canadian team.

                          James Johnson ended up as a bust here. He was pretty much Jamario Moon. He's ok in Memphis though. But that's about it.

                          I wouldn't have minded that trade but only if no draft picks were involved.

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                          • #43
                            2KJ wrote: View Post
                            Does it matter? He's in one of the best systems in the nba if not the best. He's also a great character who works hard. He even asked Pop to send him to the D-League so he could get some ice time and develop. He's just been to the finals, and will most likely get back there and hopefully win a ring. He's also one of the important players of the team atm, guarding Westbroock. While you don't see much of his play, he showed it last year at the FIBA Americas where he was the leader of the Canadian team.

                            James Johnson ended up as a bust here. He was pretty much Jamario Moon. He's ok in Memphis though. But that's about it.

                            I wouldn't have minded that trade but only if no draft picks were involved.
                            PS is there a more all-time perfect nickname match in the NBA than Bloodsport joining Grit N Grind? MAYBE if the Slim Reaper was on the Jail Blazers, or Jet/Air Canada in Lob City.
                            @Boymusic66

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                            • #44
                              2KJ wrote: View Post
                              Does it matter? He's in one of the best systems in the nba if not the best. He's also a great character who works hard. He even asked Pop to send him to the D-League so he could get some ice time and develop. He's just been to the finals, and will most likely get back there and hopefully win a ring. He's also one of the important players of the team atm, guarding Westbroock. While you don't see much of his play, he showed it last year at the FIBA Americas where he was the leader of the Canadian team.
                              So at least one person agrees with me about Joseph.

                              To me it's this Spurs tribute video that says it all:
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6NbJMq-QfU

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                              • #45
                                OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
                                Internal development?

                                We can than grow them into stars

                                OR

                                Make them look good enough that a team will jump on them for a legitimate star.

                                The 20th pick is worth much less than a player drafted 20th who has played in the NBA and show flashes of brilliance.
                                Our history does not reflect that we've ever been able to draft a star so low in the draft. It's always been top 5 or 6 players.

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