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  • LJ2 wrote: View Post

    I think there will be other teams out there that will be willing to give Boucher the term he probably wants, but Raps can't.

    One of the challenges of having a team that isn't deep is that the 5-6 man rotation that are getting the bulk of the minutes are all worthy of making minimums in the range of $20M per. It's going to take some serious negotiating to keep everyone together as their contracts come up. Still have to pay the bench guys to fill out the roster as well.
    Guys like Banton and Champagnie will be better positioned to fight for regular rotation minutes next season (they were both way to green this season). Assuming no major changes, they should have enough internally and with a vet addition to strengthen a bench that has already vastly improved since the start of the season. And don't forget Achiuwa's improvement in-season.

    I don't know how much interest there will be in Boucher. He didn't get much interest last time he was a free agent despite playing pretty well in a good year for the Raps. He's definitely more established now but he's the kind of guy that makes more money in Toronto than elsewhere cause Nurse knows how to use him to get the most of him while in other more rigid systems he's going to be a liability. In Toronto, he can run around and make shit happen whereas he won't be able to do that in most other places.

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    • DanH wrote: View Post

      I mean, yeah, the last two games Fred missed they beat Philly and Denver but the three games he missed before that they lost to Detroit, Orlando and Cleveland so I'd be real careful about ascribing any success to a lack of Fred.

      If anything, them succeeding with Fred being so limited just speaks to how freaking impactful Fred is that even with him not at his best they look so good with him there and a quasi-healthy lineup otherwise.
      Well, seeing as you are the guy who's in love with net ratings and on/off net ratings to demonstrate player impact... the reality is that as the team has become more Pascal-centric and with Nurse gradually figuring out a bench rotations in the non-Fred minutes, Fred has steadily dropped in both categories. Whereas, at the beginning of the season he was close to leading the league. The replaceability of his impact isn't so clear-cut now, especially at 30M+.

      I'm not saying Fred isn't impactful... he obviously is. I'm just saying that some of the perception of his non-replaceability might be skewed by his early season role without Pascal when Fred had to dominate the ball, combined with our bench futility. But the team appears to be gradually adjusting to Fred having a lesser a role and sometimes not even being available. Different players strengths are now being leveraged by not being limited to adjust to Fred's weaknesses as a primary creator.

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      • Puffer wrote: View Post

        Care to name 5 or 6 players taken in the "late 1st round/2nd round of the draft" who could easily replace Chris and Gary?
        In what draft? last year's draft? Bones Hyland would be an upgrade over Trent. Cam Thomas, Quentin Grimes, Josh Christopher, Miles McBride. Herbert Jones would be an upgrade over Boucher. Garuba is an intriguing talent. I'd rather have him. Day'ron Sharpe is another one.

        So there I gave you 8 names.
        Mamba Mentality

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        • LJ2 wrote: View Post

          I think there will be other teams out there that will be willing to give Boucher the term he probably wants, but Raps can't.

          One of the challenges of having a team that isn't deep is that the 5-6 man rotation that are getting the bulk of the minutes are all worthy of making minimums in the range of $20M per. It's going to take some serious negotiating to keep everyone together as their contracts come up. Still have to pay the bench guys to fill out the roster as well.
          Good point …. It’s a matter of identifying their priorities….not every season you would have 4 out of 5 of your regular starters be logging massive minutes (top 10 in the league). They have to trust their bench players and develop them to be reliable back ups right off the bat by giving them consistent minutes and longer leashes when they make mistakes. I really like the trust they gave to Boucher and the young Precious this season

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          • slaw wrote: View Post

            Guys like Banton and Champagnie will be better positioned to fight for regular rotation minutes next season (they were both way to green this season). Assuming no major changes, they should have enough internally and with a vet addition to strengthen a bench that has already vastly improved since the start of the season. And don't forget Achiuwa's improvement in-season.

            I don't know how much interest there will be in Boucher. He didn't get much interest last time he was a free agent despite playing pretty well in a good year for the Raps. He's definitely more established now but he's the kind of guy that makes more money in Toronto than elsewhere cause Nurse knows how to use him to get the most of him while in other more rigid systems he's going to be a liability. In Toronto, he can run around and make shit happen whereas he won't be able to do that in most other places.
            You could be right about the interest or lack of in Boucher, but he's a guy that has produced with a steady role off the bench. Sort of like Trent Jr. in Portland, teams want to take a chance on players like that with the idea the greater the role the greater they will produce.

            In terms of Nurse knowing how to get the best out of him, I don't know if there are many more rigid systems than the that of the Raptors. Maybe Boston, San Antonio, and Utah but for the most part Boucher should have a longer leash with other teams. As many opposing players have pointed out in post game interviews, Toronto plays a unique style of defense whereas most MBAteams copy each other and play fairly basic systems on D.

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            • slaw wrote: View Post

              Guys like Banton and Champagnie will be better positioned to fight for regular rotation minutes next season (they were both way to green this season). Assuming no major changes, they should have enough internally and with a vet addition to strengthen a bench that has already vastly improved since the start of the season. And don't forget Achiuwa's improvement in-season.

              I don't know how much interest there will be in Boucher. He didn't get much interest last time he was a free agent despite playing pretty well in a good year for the Raps. He's definitely more established now but he's the kind of guy that makes more money in Toronto than elsewhere cause Nurse knows how to use him to get the most of him while in other more rigid systems he's going to be a liability. In Toronto, he can run around and make shit happen whereas he won't be able to do that in most other places.
              Boucher isn’t a system player. He’s a high energy big who generates extra possessions, and also has some limited stretch shooting potential. That type of player can fit into any team in the league. His talents are his motor, athletic gifts and compete level.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                Well, seeing as you are the guy who's in love with net ratings and on/off net ratings to demonstrate player impact... the reality is that as the team has become more Pascal-centric and with Nurse gradually figuring out a bench rotations in the non-Fred minutes, Fred has steadily dropped in both categories. Whereas, at the beginning of the season he was close to leading the league. The replaceability of his impact isn't so clear-cut now, especially at 30M+.

                I'm not saying Fred isn't impactful... he obviously is. I'm just saying that some of the perception of his non-replaceability might be skewed by his early season role without Pascal when Fred had to dominate the ball, combined with our bench futility. But the team appears to be gradually adjusting to Fred having a lesser a role and sometimes not even being available. Different players strengths are now being leveraged by not being limited to adjust to Fred's weaknesses as a primary creator.
                Raps are 7-7 in the 14 games Fred's missed this season, not great. What are your thoughts if they can sign him to something along 26-28M per for say 4 yrs?

                The other thing to consider here is that come playoffs Pascal is going to be forced to be less ball dominant with defenses focusing on him more.

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                • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                  You could be right about the interest or lack of in Boucher, but he's a guy that has produced with a steady role off the bench. Sort of like Trent Jr. in Portland, teams want to take a chance on players like that with the idea the greater the role the greater they will produce.

                  In terms of Nurse knowing how to get the best out of him, I don't know if there are many more rigid systems than the that of the Raptors. Maybe Boston, San Antonio, and Utah but for the most part Boucher should have a longer leash with other teams. As many opposing players have pointed out in post game interviews, Toronto plays a unique style of defense whereas most MBAteams copy each other and play fairly basic systems on D.
                  Disagree on the rigidity of the system. Complex and demanding isn't necessarily rigid.

                  Boucher is an agent of chaos. Nurse knows how to exploit that. Most coaches don't and many don't like those kind of players.

                  It's like TRex above. TRex looks at basketball reference and sees Boucher's mistakes and thinks, "I can get those numbers out of some other journeyman without the hassle of the unforced errors'. What that superficial analysis misses is guys like Boucher, when they are on, have a weird effect on games that goes beyond rebounds and points. And certain guys like that just fit with well with particular groupings. Boucher is a good fit in Toronto. Is he replaceable? Sure. But you will have to get his weird intangibles from someone else and those can sometimes be difficult to replicate.

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                  • golden wrote: View Post
                    Boucher isn’t a system player. He’s a high energy big who generates extra possessions, and also has some limited stretch shooting potential. That type of player can fit into any team in the league. His talents are his motor, athletic gifts and compete level.
                    Don't agree. Not all energy bigs work everywhere and Boucher has an odd game that lots of coaches will hate.

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                    • slaw wrote: View Post

                      Disagree on the rigidity of the system. Complex and demanding isn't necessarily rigid.

                      Boucher is an agent of chaos. Nurse knows how to exploit that. Most coaches don't and many don't like those kind of players.

                      It's like TRex above. TRex looks at basketball reference and sees Boucher's mistakes and thinks, "I can get those numbers out of some other journeyman without the hassle of the unforced errors'. What that superficial analysis misses is guys like Boucher, when they are on, have a weird effect on games that goes beyond rebounds and points. And certain guys like that just fit with well with particular groupings. Boucher is a good fit in Toronto. Is he replaceable? Sure. But you will have to get his weird intangibles from someone else and those can sometimes be difficult to replicate.
                      The intangibles what Boucher and Trent Junior can provide that the stat sheet may not show. They both are definitely agents of Chaos

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                      • The Great One wrote: View Post

                        In what draft? last year's draft? Bones Hyland would be an upgrade over Trent. Cam Thomas, Quentin Grimes, Josh Christopher, Miles McBride. Herbert Jones would be an upgrade over Boucher. Garuba is an intriguing talent. I'd rather have him. Day'ron Sharpe is another one.

                        So there I gave you 8 names.
                        hard lol. you're such a pro, hard to argue posts made with that kind of conviction.

                        i'd like everyone to look up miles mcbride ask yourselves if you'd rather have gary trent jr, or a tiny shooting guard shooting less than 24% from 3 with a TS% of 37.7%? his on-offs are off the charts though

                        does it concern you that garuba can't see the floor on a houston team that is tanking their season and only playing guys for development? or has he developed already and they're just waiting to play him when they become awesome?

                        gary trent, right now, is the player the guys on your list will become only in their wildest dreams.

                        will give you herbert jones over boucher, though, and sharpe has potential.

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                        • slaw wrote: View Post

                          Don't agree. Not all energy bigs work everywhere and Boucher has an odd game that lots of coaches will hate.
                          Disagree even more. What exactly is so "odd" about Boucher's actual game that coaches hate? That he can be used as both a floor spacer and pick & roll finisher? That he protects the rim, but has the length/quickness to also contest on the perimeter? That he can generate extra chance points, but is fast enough to get back on defense in transition? Versatility is supposed to be a good thing, no? Those things can plug & play on any team.

                          The main negatives about Boucher's game are: (1) his questionable decision-making, (2) his physical stature to match up with sturdier bigs and (3) his inconsistent (this year) 3-pt shot. The other "odd" thing about Boucher is how he looks and moves out there. Yeah, he sure does look weird.... but the results are clearly outpacing the eye test.

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                          • chris wrote: View Post

                            hard lol. you're such a pro, hard to argue posts made with that kind of conviction.

                            i'd like everyone to look up miles mcbride ask yourselves if you'd rather have gary trent jr, or a tiny shooting guard shooting less than 24% from 3 with a TS% of 37.7%? his on-offs are off the charts though

                            does it concern you that garuba can't see the floor on a houston team that is tanking their season and only playing guys for development? or has he developed already and they're just waiting to play him when they become awesome?

                            gary trent, right now, is the player the guys on your list will become only in their wildest dreams.

                            will give you herbert jones over boucher, though, and sharpe has potential.
                            I mean, they're.......rookies. Not every rookie's going to put up Barnes or Mobley's numbers. You know that right? I hope so. How about you check out FVV's rookie numbers? or better yet Kyle Lowry's rookie's numbers.

                            I've seen enough of McBride in the G-League this year and I watched enough basketball to know he's going to be a good player. I'm banking on his potential. Give me McBride over a one trick phony 4 year player.
                            Last edited by The Great One; Mon Mar 28, 2022, 02:24 PM.
                            Mamba Mentality

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                            • golden wrote: View Post

                              Well, seeing as you are the guy who's in love with net ratings and on/off net ratings to demonstrate player impact... the reality is that as the team has become more Pascal-centric and with Nurse gradually figuring out a bench rotations in the non-Fred minutes, Fred has steadily dropped in both categories. Whereas, at the beginning of the season he was close to leading the league. The replaceability of his impact isn't so clear-cut now, especially at 30M+.

                              I'm not saying Fred isn't impactful... he obviously is. I'm just saying that some of the perception of his non-replaceability might be skewed by his early season role without Pascal when Fred had to dominate the ball, combined with our bench futility. But the team appears to be gradually adjusting to Fred having a lesser a role and sometimes not even being available. Different players strengths are now being leveraged by not being limited to adjust to Fred's weaknesses as a primary creator.
                              You mean Fred's been less impactful while hurt than while healthy? Shocking.

                              Pascal has indeed been the team's best (and most impactful) player. But he should be.

                              Fred has had the best on-off split of the starters besides Pascal since Nov 13th (excluded the first few games from Pascal's initial return). And advanced stats suggest that even if he's not a top 5 player like the early season results indicated (which obviously always had some context in there), they still peg him as a 95th percentile player or so, which is not the sort of thing that is replaceable.

                              The entire team construct is about players being able to take on larger roles when called upon, while having more success in their more limited roles when everything is going well. Replace Fred with a guy who can only do what Fred does when Fred is taking a back seat, and it comes back to bite you in the playoffs when teams know that and make that guy try to do what Fred can do.

                              Now, there is every reason to have a long discussion about paying Fred a max or close to it. But that's... always true? Of every player? Heck, I don't think they should be maxing Fred out. And honestly I doubt the market yields 30M+ for him in free agency, free agency has undervalued Fred at every turn. But they should be VERY hesitant to move on from him thinking what he does is replaceable. It's really not, especially with the cap situation they are in.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • The Great One wrote: View Post

                                I mean, they're.......rookies. Not every rookie's going to put up Barnes or Mobley's numbers. You know that right? I hope so. How about you check out FVV's rookie numbers? or better yet Kyle Lowry's rookie's numbers.

                                I've seen enough of McBride in the G-League this year and I watched enough basketball to know he's going to be a good player. I'm banking on his potential. Give me McBride over a one trick phony 4 year player.
                                i missed the part of your argument that stated trent and boucher are EASILY replaceable with good drafting and 4 to 6 years of development.

                                i presume you're ok hanging onto them in the meantime then
                                Last edited by chris; Mon Mar 28, 2022, 03:47 PM.

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