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Game #19: Utah Jazz 110 - Toronto Raptors 130

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  • slaw wrote: View Post

    Is anyone allowed to do anything but stand on the three point line and shoot threes? What a dynamic game!
    Gasol is supposed to stand in the high post and have guys cut around him. When he's off ball he should be above the arc.

    I have advocated for no one standing around off ball. Fred's so dynamic off ball cutting across the floor, coming around screens, sliding into open spaces as others drive and cut, I'd never ask him to stand at the three point line. He's too good off ball to have him standing still, that would be dumb. Frankly I'd like Fred to set screens for Siakam more often, that's one of Lowry's strengths Fred is smart enough to replicate and it would really leverage his off ball skills even more without forcing him to dribble possessions into oblivion to keep him involved in the primary action.

    Those two are the two most ineffective players inside the arc on the team. I don't think I'm reinventing the wheel suggesting two of our most effective three point shooters who are also incredibly ineffective inside should operate mostly on the outside.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post

      What's that? He took a bunch of open threes? And didn't barely play inside at all (and when he did it was largely useless except a wide open dunk)? He didn't force his offence but just took the open jumpers when they were there? Good stuff. Sort of exactly what people should have expected from him, and the sort of play that won't increase his scoring much long term as teams cover him more tightly on the perimeter? Yeah, good stuff.
      Every time you answer me to defend Gasol for some reason, you sound argumentative but don't address my comment at all lol

      I said "that's all a couple of us have been asking, perhaps not to this measure but just a bit more than zero from his offense. And as I suggested, it doesn't have to be at the expense of Gasol's D."

      I don't care whether he takes threes or goes inside now and again to keep them honest (he shouldn't miss the bunnies he has been) but I hate when he passes up virtually everything. He didn't pass up too many open looks and his D was still solid. EXACTLY what I said, why shouldn't your 7' C drop 10 and 5?

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      • G__Deane wrote: View Post

        Every time you answer me to defend Gasol for some reason, you sound argumentative but don't address my comment at all lol

        I said "that's all a couple of us have been asking, perhaps not to this measure but just a bit more than zero from his offense. And as I suggested, it doesn't have to be at the expense of Gasol's D."

        I don't care whether he takes threes or goes inside now and again to keep them honest (he shouldn't miss the bunnies he has been) but I hate when he passes up virtually everything. He didn't pass up too many open looks and his D was still solid. EXACTLY what I said, why shouldn't your 7' C drop 10 and 5?
        He should drop 10 and 5 when teams leave him as open as the Jazz did. Not all teams will, and he should not make an effort to get his 10 when they don't, it would be harmful to the team as a whole.

        Was my point. That it doesn't matter the point totals so long as he's making the right play within the offence.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • OK, I give up. I have what I think are reasonable expectations for Gasol that you don't. Done.

          Toronto Raptors head coach Nick Nurse says point guard Kyle Lowry, who has been sidelined since Nov. 8 with a thumb injury, is a “possibility” to return to action Tuesday against the Miami Heat.

          There, that's definitive

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          • Gasol just plays to win. Some nights he needs to score 30 (in his prime) some nights less than 5. He just judges the game. Hes not sitting there thinking "shit I only have 2 points I better shoot more"..each possession is it's own situation and he decides what he thinks is best for the Toronto raptors.

            now, has he hesitated on what would have been a good shot in the past? Absolutely. But there's no set number that Gasol needs to average x amount of points. That's not his role here. Siakam is a go to scorer. He needs to score over 20 efficiently. That's the pressure on his job. Gasol needs to make sure he team is winning, and the opposing center is not going off. That's the pressure on his job.
            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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            • slaw wrote: View Post

              Is anyone allowed to do anything but stand on the three point line and shoot threes? What a dynamic game!
              I was going to comment but then I remembered that sarcasm doesn't travel well on the internet. :-)

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              • I am so excited for Goldblum's Miami thread

                You get a gif! And you get a gif! And you get a gif!

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                • can't teach wingspan wrote: View Post
                  I am so excited for Goldblum's Miami thread

                  You get a gif! And you get a gif! And you get a gif!
                  Mr BLUM is currently with alex mckechnie getting treatment on his typing fingers
                  It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                  • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                    Gasol just plays to win. Some nights he needs to score 30 (in his prime) some nights less than 5. He just judges the game. Hes not sitting there thinking "shit I only have 2 points I better shoot more"..each possession is it's own situation and he decides what he thinks is best for the Toronto raptors.

                    now, has he hesitated on what would have been a good shot in the past? Absolutely. But there's no set number that Gasol needs to average x amount of points. That's not his role here. Siakam is a go to scorer. He needs to score over 20 efficiently. That's the pressure on his job. Gasol needs to make sure he team is winning, and the opposing center is not going off. That's the pressure on his job.
                    To start the season my two big questions would have been:

                    1) How good can Pascal become?

                    2) Who is the second/third option?

                    Obviously Pascal exceeded expectations, but I am not convinced there is enough offense to be a contender. The bummer is just that Gasol wont be that guy.

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                    • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                      Mr BLUM is currently with alex mckechnie getting treatment on his typing fingers
                      Giving me that shoelace treatment.

                      I'll be ready coach.

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post

                        I thought the biggest catalyst for it was just how open they were leaving him. Like, he's usually open. But Gobert was glued to the paint for the 1st Q, and only started coming out more later in the game. Marc just had literally a dozen feet of space and no one coming to him, he almost had to shoot. As compared to his usual "well, that guy is kinda close to me and is at least moving towards me so I can pass instead of shoot" situation. Would love to see him taking more of those medium-open shots, and hopefully this game with the incredibly-wide-open shots will be the catalyst for that. He took a couple more tightly contested ones in this one when they adjusted too, so might be a sign of readier shooting. Though hopefully he also doesn't swing too far the wrong way, he just needs to punish the defence, not take contested shots.
                        This was huge. Utah clearly wanted Gobert to protect the paint and be a bit of a roamer. Gasol starts drilling 3's and now Utah has to leave the paint open and Toronto's whole offence opens up. Give us layups or we hit 3's, either way you're getting 77 dropped on your head in the first half.
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • slaw wrote: View Post

                          Is anyone allowed to do anything but stand on the three point line and shoot threes? What a dynamic game!
                          Three point threats open up the floor for all kinds of fun things to happen offensively. I don't think Nick Nurse will ever Houston the offence. Great comment from I can't remember who on Twitter but to the effect of: analytics are built on large sample size data sets. The problem is the playoffs are a series of small sample sizes. So a team like Houston can shoot themselves right out of a playoff series, all the while believing all their 3PA have to work out for them at some point. Well it doesn't, not in a small sample size like 1 or 2 playoff games.

                          Nurse's offence is diverse and not just about guys jacking up piles of 3PA.

                          For Gasol in particular, his post game is clearly gone. I mean gone, gone. His post up attempts look horrible - the Raptors have tried giving him looks, but at some point here he's clearly a greater benefit acting as a 3 pt threat and at times an additional PG, quarterbacking the offence from the top of the perimeter. His impact there goes well beyond the box score (for the guys complaining about 5&5 games).
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • S.R. wrote: View Post

                            This was huge. Utah clearly wanted Gobert to protect the paint and be a bit of a roamer. Gasol starts drilling 3's and now Utah has to leave the paint open and Toronto's whole offence opens up. Give us layups or we hit 3's, either way you're getting 77 dropped on your head in the first half.
                            Bingo. You articulated the precise reason Gasol can't pass up open shots on the perimeter. Gotta keep the opposing defence honest of you're gonna play in the perimeter. To paraphrase another poster (Golden, I think), he embraced his inner Brook Lopez last night, at least on the first quarter, so that opened things up beautifully in the paint for everyone else. His raw score is secondary. For me personally, I'm happier with a 6pt Gasol game where he's gunninng and punishing defences for leaving him open, then a 12pt game generated by forced/contested/inefficient shots.
                            ==Glad to have doubted the doubters==

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                            • Let us assume we traded Gasol for another C, how would we look like ?

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                              • RaptorsVictim wrote: View Post
                                Let us assume we traded Gasol for another C, how would we look like ?
                                It would look like when Ibaka is on the floor. More pick n roll and paint shots, maybe stronger rebounding depending on who the new C would be, but there would be a more clogged paint for our wings because the opposing rim protector would be there, and there would be less back cutting to the basket.

                                The viariablity of styles alone that Nurse can go to when toggling Ibaka & Gasol can create problems for the opposing D.
                                Last edited by inthepaint; Mon Dec 2nd, 2019, 06:47 PM.
                                ==Glad to have doubted the doubters==

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