To trade or not to trade

[c-troop]

anyways here's a compromise

https://tradenba.com/trades/-eeFBNc4y

[DanH]

who's are better though?

https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players

you aren't credible in my eyes anymore DanH. their PERS are near identical, their defensive stats are identical, per 36 Teague has more assists. Dan, you are dead wrong and ppl on this forum respect you so they will pile on me and randomly hate. but you are wrong sir.

I asked what stats are important to you and check those career numbers out. they check in.

and if you say that's because his old stats are better... well if you compare Conley and Teague this season they are pretty equal as well.

AT the end of the day Conley is better, but not worth giving away norman Powell and Ibaka for. period. Teague is Conley lite and he's much better than McCaw. to say he is trash because you don't want him is just false information.

Please, I can't with the PER. If you want a production stat you can use WS, and you are right, by pure production, Teague looks better than Conley. But I would have thought a fanbase that lived through DeMar DeRozan would have a better comprehension that production is only half the game. Making your teammates better and making the team defence better when you are on the court are just as big a contribution, and we can measure those things with the various available adjusted plus-minus metrics out there.

Teague being better than McCaw is quite a bar to set.

So, we've come to this. You accept that right now, this season, Conley is better than Teague. And are aware that this season is outlier bad for Conley and it wouldn't be shocking for him to revert to or at least regress toward his usual production and impact, which is far beyond anything Teague has ever done, when both ends of the court are taken into account. You seem to land on your concern being the price paid not being worth it. And the difference I guess is just Powell, right? Or just Ibaka? I can't recall.

And clearly that is where our difference lies. Ibaka has been a negative influence on the team this season (on the court, I don't think anyone would criticize his locker room presence or general likability), except essentially as injury insurance. Powell too, in spite of all apparent improvements. Trading them is not a cost, it is an additional benefit. But so too would be trading away Teague if we had him, which is my issue with said proposed acquisition.

Failing a trade there is still of course hope that Ibaka and Powell prove to be able to slot into their roles better and provide a more positive impact. I'd prefer to take that chance than to trade them for a guard we know is a terrible defender and a solid backup big. A higher ceiling move for a potentially starter-quality (or even dramatically better) PG to add to our list of creators, with only a depth big included, makes much more sense. If you are going to take the risk of breaking up the team as it exists, with all the locker room chemistry and playoff experience included, you'd better be risking it for a significant upgrade, not pieces you know will be moderate upgrades at best (with a very real chance of not being that at all).

[DanH]

anyways here's a compromise

https://tradenba.com/trades/-eeFBNc4y

LOL yeah that's ideal but I imagine we'd need to be sending some picks or something (which I don't want to do), that's a steal. Hard to imagine the Jazz agreeing to anything of the sort unless they really are desperate to shed that salary.

[c-troop]

Please, I can't with the PER. If you want a production stat you can use WS, and you are right, by pure production, Teague looks better than Conley. But I would have thought a fanbase that lived through DeMar DeRozan would have a better comprehension that production is only half the game. Making your teammates better and making the team defence better when you are on the court are just as big a contribution, and we can measure those things with the various available adjusted plus-minus metrics out there.

Teague being better than McCaw is quite a bar to set.

So, we've come to this. You accept that right now, this season, Conley is better than Teague. And are aware that this season is outlier bad for Conley and it wouldn't be shocking for him to revert to or at least regress toward his usual production and impact, which is far beyond anything Teague has ever done, when both ends of the court are taken into account. You seem to land on your concern being the price paid not being worth it. And the difference I guess is just Powell, right? Or just Ibaka? I can't recall.

And clearly that is where our difference lies. Ibaka has been a negative influence on the team this season (on the court, I don't think anyone would criticize his locker room presence or general likability), except essentially as injury insurance. Powell too, in spite of all apparent improvements. Trading them is not a cost, it is an additional benefit. But so too would be trading away Teague if we had him, which is my issue with said proposed acquisition.

Failing a trade there is still of course hope that Ibaka and Powell prove to be able to slot into their roles better and provide a more positive impact. I'd prefer to take that chance than to trade them for a guard we know is a terrible defender and a solid backup big. A higher ceiling move for a potentially starter-quality (or even dramatically better) PG to add to our list of creators, with only a depth big included, makes much more sense. If you are going to take the risk of breaking up the team as it exists, with all the locker room chemistry and playoff experience included, you'd better be risking it for a significant upgrade, not pieces you know will be moderate upgrades at best (with a very real chance of not being that at all).

We both have our stances and that's fine. But saying stuff like ''far beyond anything' and calling Teague a terrible defender when the defensive stat is so slanted towards team play, becomes erroneous. His career defensive stats are like almost identical as Conley's.

Teague has value whether you see it or not. He isn't a hindrance.

Minnesota is so bad even Jimmy Butler couldn't deal with Wiggins and KAT. And look at what he is doing in Miami now.

I see you are certain that you don't want him here though. That's ok!

I'm also ok with Masai giving away picks because I would have thought a fanbase that saw an organization land Davis II and FVV through the undrafted system would understand their true value in the modern-day.

I don't accept that Conley reverting to whatever form you think he is best at is superior because he takes a lot of shots. A lot of shots taken that would be taking away shots from TDII, Lowry, FVV, and Siakam. 16 FGA's is a lot.

He needs a lot of shots to be effective and contribute and that's why I think he is struggling in Utah.

[nba_4_life]

I wonder if the Raptors sorta are intentionally sitting Gasol out all this time to boost Ibaka value (Ibaka is doing really well) . Remember one post saying if it were up to Gasol he would've already played. Add to the notion that McCaw is getting a lot of "unearned" minutes could be for the same reason. Same goes with the better players not getting enough playtime (Boucher,Davis,RHJ etc), reducing their value so other teams wouldn't ask for them. I am just thinking out loud, have no links or anything

[DanH]

We both have our stances and that's fine. But saying stuff like ''far beyond anything' and calling Teague a terrible defender when the defensive stat is so slanted towards team play, becomes erroneous. His career defensive stats are like almost identical as Conley's.

Teague has value whether you see it or not. He isn't a hindrance.

Minnesota is so bad even Jimmy Butler couldn't deal with Wiggins and KAT. And look at what he is doing in Miami now.

I see you are certain that you don't want him here though. That's ok!

I'm also ok with Masai giving away picks because I would have thought a fanbase that saw an organization land Davis II and FVV through the undrafted system would understand their true value in the modern-day.

I don't accept that Conley reverting to whatever form you think he is best at is superior because he takes a lot of shots. A lot of shots taken that would be taking away shots from TDII, Lowry, FVV, and Siakam. 16 FGA's is a lot.

He needs a lot of shots to be effective and contribute and that's why I think he is struggling in Utah.

Which career defensive stats? If you mean steals and blocks, man alive, those are not remotely adequate measures of defence.

Teague is absolutely a hindrance. Jimmy Butler hated Minny and the team sucked, but he still measured out as the 4th most impactful player in the league playing on that garbage team. That's the whole point of impact stats, to remove as much as possible the effect of the team you are on.

That same fanbase that saw FVV and Davis landed without draft picks also saw OG Anunoby and Pascal Siakam landed with late 1st round picks.

Again, Conley doesn't HAVE to take a lot of shots. But coming off the bench, as he likely would be here (or even if he starts he'd surely play a lot of minutes buoying bench units or transitional units where multiple other key offensive players are resting), a guy to take a lot of shots is actually exactly what this team could use. And he can still shoot threes, so if you do leave him off ball when playing with other top players on the team he can still be effective. I'd also qualify that the shots he would be taking wouldn't come from the players you list necessarily, but would come from the players we trade for him, you know, Serge and Norm. Never mind that the 16 FGA per game you keep yelling about is a one year peak for Conley, who has averaged between 12-14 shots per game over the last half decade, and had plenty of success earlier in his career nearer 10-11 FGA's.

[DanH]

I wonder if the Raptors sorta are intentionally sitting Gasol out all this time to boost Ibaka value (Ibaka is doing really well) . Remember one post saying if it were up to Gasol he would've already played. Add to the notion that McCaw is getting a lot of "unearned" minutes could be for the same reason. Same goes with the better players not getting enough playtime (Boucher,Davis,RHJ etc), reducing their value so other teams wouldn't ask for them. I am just thinking out loud, have no links or anything

This is the sort of trap I often find myself falling into. But sadly most often there is no such conspiracy. Teams are just cautious with injuries (especially the Raptors who know the value of ensuring their players are healthy heading into the playoffs). As for McCaw, Masai does not seem the type to butt in on how to deploy players unless he is absolutely forced to. Simplest answer is Nurse just likes McCaw for some reason.

[TrueTorontoFan]

i am late to the discussion. So Dan H you want Conley, and C-Troop wants Jeff Teague?

[TrueTorontoFan]

Out of curiosity would anyone be interested in trading with GS for D'Angelo Russell? GS always being in the championship picture when healthy I would think they would value cap space more than anything which Raps can provide right? What do you think it would take to get him?

Here is my issue with him... the guy has shown a tendency to be afraid of contact (his freethrow rate is low), he also stuggles a bit with breaking down guys off the drive. Lastly, his defence has always been the weaker part of his game.


Lastly, depending on what you are giving up ... you risk your 21 cap space.

[TrueTorontoFan]

yeah

i think teague would be decent.... if we were looking to tank (we are already too good to tank win wise). So I don't get the obsession with Teague. I don't know what he is providing over people who are here. Forget Conley for a second.

[c-troop]

Which career defensive stats? If you mean steals and blocks, man alive, those are not remotely adequate measures of defence.

Teague is absolutely a hindrance. Jimmy Butler hated Minny and the team sucked, but he still measured out as the 4th most impactful player in the league playing on that garbage team. That's the whole point of impact stats, to remove as much as possible the effect of the team you are on.

That same fanbase that saw FVV and Davis landed without draft picks also saw OG Anunoby and Pascal Siakam landed with late 1st round picks.

Again, Conley doesn't HAVE to take a lot of shots. But coming off the bench, as he likely would be here (or even if he starts he'd surely play a lot of minutes buoying bench units or transitional units where multiple other key offensive players are resting), a guy to take a lot of shots is actually exactly what this team could use. And he can still shoot threes, so if you do leave him off ball when playing with other top players on the team he can still be effective. I'd also qualify that the shots he would be taking wouldn't come from the players you list necessarily, but would come from the players we trade for him, you know, Serge and Norm. Never mind that the 16 FGA per game you keep yelling about is a one year peak for Conley, who has averaged between 12-14 shots per game over the last half decade, and had plenty of success earlier in his career nearer 10-11 FGA's.

what is frustrating is you don't think he would e better than McCaw. the Ortg and Drtg are right there under per 100 pos. And Conley's is equal and Teagues

where is the impact stat located that I'm not clearly seeing?


I truly don't see the justification for the Teague hate. It some sort of echo chamber response.

And especially if he came off our bench he would be very effective.

You want a 30 million dollar PG to come off our bench it's not funny it's gross.

[TrueTorontoFan]

what is frustrating is you don't think he would e better than McCaw. the Ortg and Drtg are right there under per 100 pos. And Conley's is equal and Teagues

where is the impact stat located that I'm not clearly seeing?


I truly don't see the justification for the Teague hate. It some sort of echo chamber response.

And especially if he came off our bench he would be very effective.

You want a 30 million dollar PG to come off our bench it's not funny it's gross.

I dont hate him I just dont see the value he adds over what is here. I get the issue with mccaw but... what are you giving up JUST to get teague? Is the value of what you are giving up truly worth the return that teague would bring... also say what you want AT LEAST mccaw brings size. Our team struggles with big guards....

[golden]

Lol. I had no idea that suggesting the Conley idea would set off a sh!tstorm.

[c-troop]

I dont hate him I just dont see the value he adds over what is here. I get the issue with mccaw but... what are you giving up JUST to get teague? Is the value of what you are giving up truly worth the return that teague would bring... also say what you want AT LEAST mccaw brings size. Our team struggles with big guards....

fair enough but we dont really need 2 SG's coming off the bench regardless of their size. McCaw is a bad bench facilitator.

[c-troop]

Lol. I had no idea that suggesting the Conley idea would set off a sh!tstorm.

we're just talking man it's not that serious.