Game #24: Los Angeles Clippers 112 - Toronto Raptors 92

[slaw]

Praising Serge's Game 7 is diminishing the title run? You're barking up the wrong tree here, slaw. As usual. lol.

And the Warriors still would have beat the Rockets, even with CP3. They only played as hard as they needed to when challenged. We saw that with the Durant-less Warriors giving the Raptors all they could handle until Klay blew his leg out a second time.

Championship DNA and all that..... I think that's what you were saying we have this year.... right? It wasn't mostly Kawhi... right?

You're arguing that 'but for this' and 'but for that' the Raps don't win. You weren't just praising Ibaka, you posted "It was this close folks". It should be too trite to say it but that is true for every team. There are always but-fors and what-ifs. As I said, it's always that close. The fact that a championship run turned on a game here or there or a big shot here or there (Robert Horry!!! Steve Kerr!!! Derek Fisher!!! Ray Allen!!!) isn't unique to the Raps. Arguing that's the case is not only demonstrably wrong but is disparaging.

On the completely unrelated topic of 'championship DNA', I do believe that teams and players benefit from championship runs in tangible and intangible ways. Absolutely. To what degree? I don't know. I'm not as certain about everything as other posters seem to be. Does that experience and knowledge guarantee a team will continue to be good regardless of personnel? I don't recall ever making that argument.

As for another completely unrelated topic, I don't recall ever saying Kawhi wasn't material to winning a ring. If you can find me posting that then I was obviously drunk when I did. I will say that Kawhi wasn't the sole reason the Raptors won and that, and here we agree, the contributions of other players were key and get lost in shuffle.

[A.I]

Isn't that what the Raps are doing? Feels pretty good to me.

What's the alternative that prevents any stretch where the team isn't in contention? Are there any examples?

I think the main focus is the 2021 free agency. A lot of big players will be available and a lot of our players' contracts expire. The question is how Masai goes about it until then. He could ride the current roster, make the Playoffs, young guys gain experience and go after a star in 2021 or he could trade the vets to teams who want to make a Playoff push, stock up on draft picks and expiring contracts, get worse in the short term, go after a player in the 2020 or 2021 draft and still have cap space for 2021.

[LJ2]

Isn't that his approach? He didn't move up in draft because I think trade just wasn't there. But Masai teams always were competitive and we invest heavily in young guys as it is. If we take a major stepback I think it will give him more freedom to operate.

But Kawhi and Luka are rare talents. So it's mostly about luck.

The staying in contention part yes, but he has yet to play the draft game with any real effort choosing instead to trade for veterans. Jacob was his highest draft pick as Raptors GM and that was a pretty awful draft year. He and his team have a great eye for talent, but have been playing the draft game on the outskirts with later first round, second round and undrafted prospects.

[MixxAOR]

The staying in contention part yes, but he has yet to play the draft game with any real effort choosing instead to trade for veterans. Jacob was his highest draft pick as Raptors GM and that was a pretty awful draft year. He and his team have a great eye for talent, but have been playing the draft game on the outskirts with later first round, second round and undrafted prospects.

well that's because they been too good. If we can be worse and have better pick I'm sure results will be better

[LJ2]

Isn't that what the Raps are doing? Feels pretty good to me.

What's the alternative that prevents any stretch where the team isn't in contention? Are there any examples?

Not really. To date they've made some shrewd draft choices with late and undrafted prospects, but have yet to go after someone in the lottery which they really liked. Apologies to Jacob, but he was hardly someone they were really after.

[slaw]

I think the main focus is the 2021 free agency. A lot of big players will be available and a lot of our players' contracts expire. The question is how Masai goes about it until then. He could ride the current roster, make the Playoffs, young guys gain experience and go after a star in 2021 or he could trade the vets to teams who want to make a Playoff push, stock up on draft picks and expiring contracts, get worse in the short term, go after a player in the 2020 or 2021 draft and still have cap space for 2021.

Fair enough, there are a couple of paths to 2021 but this front office has given no indication that it believes it needs to take a bunch of steps back to move forward. It's masked by the title and the playoff success but the team has been rebuilding for a couple years now with FVV, OG, Siakam, Powell and now Davis, Hernandez and to a lesser extent guys like Boucher. Raps aren't in the same position as a lot of teams that fall out of their contention window, so I don't know that the usual rules about moving vets to get picks, etc. really apply.

[MixxAOR]

Not really. To date they've made some shrewd draft choices with late and undrafted prospects, but have yet to go after someone in the lottery which they really liked. Apologies to Jacob, but he was hardly someone they were really after.

You want to have your cake and eat it too? Contend and get lottery picks?

[planetmars]

I don't think we can get many picks for our vets anyway. It's not like we can get a lottery pick for Lowry. That's a pipe dream. Fred could get you a high pick but I think he'll be a keeper. Masai is pretty calm most of the time. I don't seem him making a drastic move unless we get swept 4-0 in the first round, and even then he may just keep the band back. He did that against the Wizards sweep a few years back.

He pounces at opportunities though. Like the Bargnani and Serge trades. The Kawhi and Marc trades. Not many things to pounce at right now. He's got 2021 circled on his white board. That's the opportunity he's looking at. So until then its about continuing to build from within and hoping for playoff success. He might make a small trade to get out from Norm's deal early. But that again is him looking at 2021 and he's in no hurry to do anything that drastic right now.

Personally I'd like to trade Serge but that's my personal angst coming through. He's a good guy and wish him the best. Hope he turns things around and can learn to fit with our bench. But yeah, he's a sore point right now.

At worst we're a 6th seed in the East. That's not good as we could be playing a team like Boston or Philly in round 1. But those guys have trouble beating us at home, and we would just need to steal one on the road. An "upset" is very possible.

[DanH]

Fair enough, there are a couple of paths to 2021 but this front office has given no indication that it believes it needs to take a bunch of steps back to move forward. It's masked by the title and the playoff success but the team has been rebuilding for a couple years now with FVV, OG, Siakam, Powell and now Davis, Hernandez and to a lesser extent guys like Boucher. Raps aren't in the same position as a lot of teams that fall out of their contention window, so I don't know that the usual rules about moving vets to get picks, etc. really apply.

If they were going to tank, they would have done it in the summer when the championship shine would have had Lowry, Gasol and Ibaka's trade values at their peak.

Masai has pretty clearly committed to trying to win to bridge the gap to 2021. Don't need to win chips in this transition period, but if they can win a couple playoff rounds over the next couple springs, they can stay relevant and keep Pascal a visible star.

At this point it would take a really nice offer, I would think, to move Lowry or Gasol, and take a step back in terms of being competitive (still not nearly enough to truly tank).

It's guys like Serge and Powell whose contributions to winning are more suspect (especially compared to their raw production) who might be available in trade even if the team wants to keep winning.

[golden]

You're arguing that 'but for this' and 'but for that' the Raps don't win. You weren't just praising Ibaka, you posted "It was this close folks". It should be too trite to say it but that is true for every team. There are always but-fors and what-ifs. As I said, it's always that close. The fact that a championship run turned on a game here or there or a big shot here or there (Robert Horry!!! Steve Kerr!!! Derek Fisher!!! Ray Allen!!!) isn't unique to the Raps. Arguing that's the case is not only demonstrably wrong but is disparaging.

On the completely unrelated topic of 'championship DNA', I do believe that teams and players benefit from championship runs in tangible and intangible ways. Absolutely. To what degree? I don't know. I'm not as certain about everything as other posters seem to be. Does that experience and knowledge guarantee a team will continue to be good regardless of personnel? I don't recall ever making that argument.

As for another completely unrelated topic, I don't recall ever saying Kawhi wasn't material to winning a ring. If you can find me posting that then I was obviously drunk when I did. I will say that Kawhi wasn't the sole reason the Raptors won and that, and here we agree, the contributions of other players were key and get lost in shuffle.

Man, I wasn't even going where you're going. 'But for this/that' is a given in sports. I'm not even disagreeing with the luck factor in a lot of championships.... Warriors first chip had tons of that. Raps also had plenty of that, including injuries (KD, Klay) and illness (Embiid) to the best player on the opposition. That doesn't diminish either of those championships. And if I said it does somewhere, please feel free to quote me.

But.....my main point was that we're all down on Serge now, and rightfully so. And he might be done. Just reminding people that we should still appreciate Serge coming through at the biggest of moments, when every other than Kawhi shrank. That's a largely under-appreciated critical moment of the championship run. But hey, you can cherry pick whatever off-hand reference to rail against whatever strawman you want... go nuts.

[Zak24gege]

And he really keeps doing it year after year.

Why did we let this guy go? Wasn't there a locker room issue?

[MixxAOR]

Why did we let this guy go? Wasn't there a locker room issue?

Lou Will says his lifestyle was a problem for management. We get high character guys. Not dudes with two gfs

[Zak24gege]

1. Fricken Lowry making plans to go out for drinks with Kawhi.....

Just asking Kawhi his preference "Red or White"?

[golden]

Why did we let this guy go? Wasn't there a locker room issue?

There are 2 versions of this story. Both of them have interviews to back them up:

Version 1: Casey got called out by Masai after the Wizards sweep because our defense was really bad in the playoffs and for the most part, all season long. He challenged Casey that he's supposed to be a self-proclaimed defensive coach. Casey then scape-goated Lou Williams saying that the team had adopted Lou's bad habits and that affected the whole team. The result was that Lou was obviously not re-signed, assistant coaches Sterner and Bayno were fired, and defensive guru Andy Greer was hired. We drafted defense-first guards, Delon & Norm, and we also signed CoJo as a FA, all non-shooters, to do the dirty work for Kyle & DeMar. And Casey was able to save his job.

Version 2: During his time with the Raps, Lou was living like a sultan with 2 hot girlfriends. According to Lou-Will, he says he heard that some of player's wives complained about him and that's why they never re-signed him after his 6MOTY winning season.

I like Version 2 actually, because it's so Baller Wives / TMZ worthy. But Version 1 seems closer to the truth.

[Scraptor]

I think pinning our hopes on 2021 free agency (if that is what Masai intends) is a mistake. We just lost Kawhi **after winning the championship**, 25 years of history tells us free agency is not a viable path for acquiring talent here in Canada.

So I don't have a problem with Masai moving Serge or Marc in retooling type moves. I would like to see Kyle retire a Raptor, but after we dealt DeMar I will understand if Masai sees a similar trade that is good for the franchise.

And I do think that Masai might actually surprise us by trying to make another Kawhi type trade for a star. Like maybe Bradley Beal gets fed up with the tank and asks out. Anything could happen.