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Raptors Salary Cap Situation (and planning for the future)

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  • 3inthekeon
    replied
    Mess wrote: View Post
    Or the Playoff Shine will have worn off by then and the Raps could easily renege on paying him $24M a season.
    Or in 2 yrs Masai isn't our GM anymore.

    But Dan nailed it. The Joe Smith penalty would destroy a franchise for years.

    And this isn't doing an under the table deal for Steph Curry or Lebron. I've said good things about Biz all year, but give your head a shake - you'd risk those penalties for Bismack Biyombo?
    Last edited by 3inthekeon; Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:13 PM.

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  • Mess
    replied
    DonM wrote: View Post
    Why Bismack Byombo Might Not Accept This Arrangement
    1] Bismack would have to wait 2 years before he starts to get paid the major part of his money.
    2] He could have a career ending injury within the next 2 years before he signs a full bird contract in his 3rd year [2018-2019].
    Or the Playoff Shine will have worn off by then and the Raps could easily renege on paying him $24M a season.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barolt
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    That's what he did. He's describing two contracts.
    Ah, yeah. I missed that on the first readthrough. Your other response is the right one then. It's against NBA rules.

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  • DanH
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    Can only give 5% raises of the initial year of the contract in any year. So a $5 mil base comes with a maximum 250k raise.
    That's what he did. He's describing two contracts.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Why the Raptors might not accept this arrangement:

    If the NBA ever found out there was any such agreement ahead of time, it would be considered cap circumvention, Biyombo's contract would be voided, the Raps would face fines and other penalties including loss of draft picks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barolt
    replied
    DonM wrote: View Post
    Building on what DanH, Planetmars and others have written, is there a possibility the following could work:

    How to Resign Bismack Byombo and give him his money without rescinding free agent salary cap holds or trading players

    Raptors match or negotiate a prospective new team's offer over the length of the offer [likely 4 years from 2016 to 2020] rather than over 1 year [2016-2017].

    Raptors present an offer to pay Bismack less money in years 1 and 2 on a 2 year Non-Tax Mid Level Exception contract
    Raptors pay Bismack more money in years 3 and 4 [2018-2019 and 2019-2020] on a second 2 year contract when Raptors have full Bird rights.


    New Team Contract Offer
    Year Period Payments Length Contract Type

    1st 2016-17 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space
    2nd2017-18 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space
    3rd 2018-19 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space
    4th 2019-20 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space

    4yr Total $60,000,000
    4yr Average $15,000,000


    Raptors Contract Offers
    Year Period Payments Length Contract Type

    1st 2016-17 $5,628,000 2 Years Non-Tax Mid Level Exception
    2nd2017-18 $5,881,000 2 Years Non-Tax Mid Level Exception [4.5% Increase]
    3rd2018-19 $24,245,500 2 Years Full Bird
    4th2019-20 $24,245,500 2 Years Full Bird

    4yr Total $60,000,000
    4yr Average $15,000,000


    Notes:
    1] Over 4 years, Byombo gets $60,000,000 from Raptors versus $60,000,000 from a new team
    2] The formula is: $60,000,000 [New Team 4 Years] - $5,628,000 - $5,881,000 = $48,491,000 / 2 years = $24,245,500
    2] If necessary, Bismack could consider exercising his 2016-2017 Player Option [before June 3, 2016]. Year 1 and year 2 contracts would be for a lot less money but years 3 and 4 would make it up although at much higher amounts.
    3] The numbers would be different depending on how much other teams actually offer Bismack and for how much the Raptors and Byombo negotiate what is paid. But the concept, method and calculations used to resign him would be the same.
    4] According to Larry Coon: Early Bird contracts must be at least two seasons in length, which prevents teams from using the Early Bird to sign a one-year contract, then signing the same player with the full Larry Bird exception the following season.
    Effectively, this would eliminate the use of Early Bird rights for Bismack because his Full Bird Rights wouldn't be available until his fourth year in 2019-2020.

    Why Bismack Byombo Might Accept This Arrangement
    1] Although he would have to wait 2 years, Bismack would get paid his full amount of money [$60,000,000].
    2] Bismack would get to stay in Toronto with a city that appreciates and respects what he has to offer [President, Head Coach, Players, Fans, Others]
    3] Bismack would stay with an organization which emphasizes and prioritizes his basketball strengths [defence]
    4] Bismack would not have to take the risk of going to a new organization which may place a different emphasis on how they play basketball [such as emphasizing and prioritizing offense over defence]

    Why Bismack Byombo Might Not Accept This Arrangement
    1] Bismack would have to wait 2 years before he starts to get paid the major part of his money.
    2] He could have a career ending injury within the next 2 years before he signs a full bird contract in his 3rd year [2018-2019].

    Why The Raptors Might Accept This Arrangement
    1] The Raptors would keep Bismack for 2 years at an extremely low price.
    2] The Raptors would not have to rescind any free agent salary cap holds in order to sign Bismack.
    3] The Raptors would not have to trade anyone in order to sign Bismack. If the Raptors want to make a trade, then they would do so for other reasons but not to sign Bismack.
    4] Because Bismack would sign a 2 year Non-Tax Mid Level Exception contract, the Raptors could use the Non-Tax Mid Level Exception again the next year [2017-2018] to sign another free agent.

    Why The Raptors Might Not Accept This Arrangement
    1] Paying Bismack $24,245,500 both in 2018-2019 and 2019-2020 might appear to be too much money but:
    a] This would be make up pay for the extremely low amounts paid in the first 2 years [2016-2017 and 2017-2018] and
    b] With the increases in salaries over the next 2 years he would probably be offered that much money by another team when he becomes a free agent again [2018-2019].
    Can only give 5% raises of the initial year of the contract in any year. So a $5 mil base comes with a maximum 250k raise.

    Leave a comment:


  • DonM
    replied
    Building on what DanH, Planetmars and others have written, is there a possibility the following could work:

    How to Resign Bismack Byombo and give him his money without rescinding free agent salary cap holds or trading players

    Raptors match or negotiate a prospective new team's offer over the length of the offer [likely 4 years from 2016 to 2020] rather than over 1 year [2016-2017].

    Raptors present an offer to pay Bismack less money in years 1 and 2 on a 2 year Non-Tax Mid Level Exception contract
    Raptors pay Bismack more money in years 3 and 4 [2018-2019 and 2019-2020] on a second 2 year contract when Raptors have full Bird rights.


    New Team Contract Offer
    Year Period Payments Length Contract Type

    1st 2016-17 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space
    2nd2017-18 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space
    3rd 2018-19 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space
    4th 2019-20 $15,000,000 4 Years Cap Space

    4yr Total $60,000,000
    4yr Average $15,000,000


    Raptors Contract Offers
    Year Period Payments Length Contract Type

    1st 2016-17 $5,628,000 2 Years Non-Tax Mid Level Exception
    2nd2017-18 $5,881,000 2 Years Non-Tax Mid Level Exception [4.5% Increase]
    3rd2018-19 $24,245,500 2 Years Full Bird
    4th2019-20 $24,245,500 2 Years Full Bird

    4yr Total $60,000,000
    4yr Average $15,000,000


    Notes:
    1] Over 4 years, Byombo gets $60,000,000 from Raptors versus $60,000,000 from a new team
    2] The formula is: $60,000,000 [New Team 4 Years] - $5,628,000 - $5,881,000 = $48,491,000 / 2 years = $24,245,500
    2] If necessary, Bismack could consider exercising his 2016-2017 Player Option [before June 3, 2016]. Year 1 and year 2 contracts would be for a lot less money but years 3 and 4 would make it up although at much higher amounts.
    3] The numbers would be different depending on how much other teams actually offer Bismack and for how much the Raptors and Byombo negotiate what is paid. But the concept, method and calculations used to resign him would be the same.
    4] According to Larry Coon: Early Bird contracts must be at least two seasons in length, which prevents teams from using the Early Bird to sign a one-year contract, then signing the same player with the full Larry Bird exception the following season.
    Effectively, this would eliminate the use of Early Bird rights for Bismack because his Full Bird Rights wouldn't be available until his fourth year in 2019-2020.

    Why Bismack Byombo Might Accept This Arrangement
    1] Although he would have to wait 2 years, Bismack would get paid his full amount of money [$60,000,000].
    2] Bismack would get to stay in Toronto with a city that appreciates and respects what he has to offer [President, Head Coach, Players, Fans, Others]
    3] Bismack would stay with an organization which emphasizes and prioritizes his basketball strengths [defence]
    4] Bismack would not have to take the risk of going to a new organization which may place a different emphasis on how they play basketball [such as emphasizing and prioritizing offense over defence]

    Why Bismack Byombo Might Not Accept This Arrangement
    1] Bismack would have to wait 2 years before he starts to get paid the major part of his money.
    2] He could have a career ending injury within the next 2 years before he signs a full bird contract in his 3rd year [2018-2019].

    Why The Raptors Might Accept This Arrangement
    1] The Raptors would keep Bismack for 2 years at an extremely low price.
    2] The Raptors would not have to rescind any free agent salary cap holds in order to sign Bismack.
    3] The Raptors would not have to trade anyone in order to sign Bismack. If the Raptors want to make a trade, then they would do so for other reasons but not to sign Bismack.
    4] Because Bismack would sign a 2 year Non-Tax Mid Level Exception contract, the Raptors could use the Non-Tax Mid Level Exception again the next year [2017-2018] to sign another free agent.

    Why The Raptors Might Not Accept This Arrangement
    1] Paying Bismack $24,245,500 both in 2018-2019 and 2019-2020 might appear to be too much money but:
    a] This would be make up pay for the extremely low amounts paid in the first 2 years [2016-2017 and 2017-2018] and
    b] With the increases in salaries over the next 2 years he would probably be offered that much money by another team when he becomes a free agent again [2018-2019].

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    Mess wrote: View Post
    What about his Angry Bird rights? Where most people forget about you for a few years and then all of a sudden you show up in public again and people would be like "Oh yeah...that guy." It sounds like he still has that going for him.
    I'm now envisioning De Colo being launched from a slingshot into a castle made out of wood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mess
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    That's what I answered - he has two Bird years from the two years he actually played. No, he does not get more years by not playing.
    What about his Angry Bird rights? Where most people forget about you for a few years and then all of a sudden you show up in public again and people would be like "Oh yeah...that guy." It sounds like he still has that going for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Gambino wrote: View Post
    That's not what I asked really.

    I know he keeps his 2 bird years from SAS and being traded to us. I'm wondering if these past two years where we've kept his rights count as an additional two years. So does he have 2 bird years or 4?
    That's what I answered - he has two Bird years from the two years he actually played. No, he does not get more years by not playing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambino
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    He has two Bird years from the two years he played in the NBA - you don't lose your rights when you are traded (except sometimes if you are on a one year deal). And the Raptors have managed to keep de Colo's rights by not renouncing his cap hold over the past couple years.
    That's not what I asked really.

    I know he keeps his 2 bird years from SAS and being traded to us. I'm wondering if these past two years where we've kept his rights count as an additional two years. So does he have 2 bird years or 4?

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Gambino wrote: View Post
    Thanks for that post mate, how do the bird years work with De Colo? He was on our team in 2013-14 and the Spurs in 2012-13 and he was traded to us. So does he have 2 bird years or do these past two years where we've had his rights but he's been outside the NBA count? Haven't been able to find information on that in the CBA FAQ.
    He has two Bird years from the two years he played in the NBA - you don't lose your rights when you are traded (except sometimes if you are on a one year deal). And the Raptors have managed to keep de Colo's rights by not renouncing his cap hold over the past couple years.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambino
    replied
    Thanks for that post mate, how do the bird years work with De Colo? He was on our team in 2013-14 and the Spurs in 2012-13 and he was traded to us. So does he have 2 bird years or do these past two years where we've had his rights but he's been outside the NBA count? Haven't been able to find information on that in the CBA FAQ.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    I try not to pimp my own stuff very much, but I've got a big salary prep piece for the upcoming draft and free agency up right now that I think is worth a read (note: I may be biased in this matter).

    http://www.raptorshq.com/2016/6/1/11...p-update-draft

    For those who prefer not to click to read the excess verbage, here are the raw numbers for at the draft:

    DeMarre Carroll $13,600,000
    Kyle Lowry $12,000,000
    DeMar DeRozan $10,050,000
    Cory Joseph $7,000,000
    Patrick Patterson $6,268,675
    Jonas Valanciunas $4,660,482
    Terrence Ross $3,553,917
    Luis Scola $2,900,000
    Bismack Biyombo $2,814,000
    James Johnson $2,500,000
    Lucas Nogueira $1,842,000
    Bruno Caboclo $1,524,000
    Delon Wright $1,509,360
    Norman Powell $650,000
    Jason Thompson $245,177
    Ronald Roberts $75,000
    Axel Toupane $25,000
    Michale Kyser $25,000
    Shannon Scott $25,000
    Nando de Colo $1,900,000

    Total committed salary: $73,169,511

    Salary Cap: $70,000,000
    Luxury Tax: $84,740,000
    Tax Apron (Hard Cap): $88,740,000

    And this summer:

    Jonas Valanciunas $14,382,024
    DeMarre Carroll $14,200,000
    Kyle Lowry $12,000,000
    Terrence Ross $10,000,000
    Cory Joseph $7,315,000
    Patrick Patterson $6,050,000
    Lucas Nogueira $1,921,320
    Bruno Caboclo $1,589,640
    Delon Wright $1,577,280
    Norman Powell $874,636

    Cap projection: $92,000,000
    Salary committed: $71M
    With draft picks: $73.2M

    And cap holds:

    DeMar DeRozan $15,225,000
    Luis Scola $3,480,000
    Bismack Biyombo $3,376,800
    James Johnson $3,250,000
    Nando de Colo $1,900,000
    Jason Thompson $1,136,731

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Chefff wrote: View Post
    Well, if JV plays 32mpg, and Biyombo plays 24mpg, in theory they only need to share the floor for 8mpg. That leaves 40mpg for Patterson, Bebe, & Carroll (small ball PF) at the remaining big spot. If for those 8mpg we have three players who can provide spacing (eg. Lowry, Powell, Carroll, assuming Ross is gone), then that works pretty well, no?

    Is that reasonable, or am I trying way too much roster gymnastics to squeeze an extremely likeable but ultimately poor fit (biyombo) onto our roster? Are there simpler solutions (eg finding the "next Biyombo)?

    Also, what do you think is a reasonable expected return for Ross if we try to salary dump him to a non-cap team with no returning salary? A low 1st round pick? Two 2nd rounders? Or will we need to sweeten the pot since we'll be lacking leverage?

    Edit: Also, many argue that $13-17mil is too much to pay for a backup C, but let's not forget that injuries happen. Biz was our starting C for a substantial part of this season. Sure it's a luxury, but also a damn good insurance policy.
    I'm all for it if they can make those 8 minutes (I've got it pegged as 10 minutes and Biz playing 26) work. Probably means lineups with Carroll, Powell and Lowry on the perimeter to get enough shooting on the floor. And I've got whoever we draft at 9 (hopefully Chriss) playing a few minutes a game to fill in the rest of the PF minutes along with small ball Carroll.

    Still, 17M is too much, but if we move Ross we can make an offer of 13-15M per year (depending on if we keep de Colo's rights or not). Which is more reasonable IF we can get PF minutes from him as well as backup C minutes and C injury insurance.

    As for dumping Ross, who knows? If you do it early (like at the draft) you might get a future pick for him. If you wait for free agency (and rumours of an agreement with Biz to leak out) you might end up shedding assets instead if teams smell blood.

    Leave a comment:

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