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Raptors Salary Cap Situation (and planning for the future)

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  • DanH
    replied
    Also, if you take the "keep Lowry, lose DD) approach, then you are very close to max cap room in 2017 to add another star beside Durant. If you lose Lowry early and keep DD, you are well off and really need to shed a few pieces to get there.

    To me, the only argument for trying to keep DD is if he is key to Durant signing here. Otherwise he simply isn't good enough to dedicate that kind of money towards him.

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  • JWash
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    If you trade Lowry you also need to move two other assets (like Bebe and Wright) along with Biyombo (or about $3M). With DD you just need to move Biyombo (or about $3M).
    You just need to not pick up Bebe's team option and let Biyombo walk (or trade him if he picks up his PO). Not that complicated. It's no different than what we have to do if we let DD walk.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    If you trade Lowry you also need to move two other assets (like Bebe and Wright) along with Biyombo (or about $3M). With DD you just need to move Biyombo (or about $3M).

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  • JWash
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    If DD was one of the best 2 guards in the league there would be some form of advanced stat to #ProveEm but there is not.

    If you want to base your opinion on PPG then you're right.

    Max that mo'fo.


    Who is taking about signing Lowry to huge deal?

    Who else goes to make a max contract offer? DD cap hold nearly $3m more than Lowry salary.

    Or do you trade Lowry for future picks?


    Time to face reality that the BEAT way to get a real max talent in FA in 2016 is to let DD walk.

    Is there anyone here who would straight up trade DD for KD or Horford? Because that is the choice over stripping starters on value contracts, bench, prospects, and future picks to keep a volume scorer who is average defender on opposition weaker wing threat.
    Trading Lowry and Biyombo (or BB just opting out, which is likely if he does anything of note this year) would create enough room to sign Durant. I already explained that in my long post previously, but that's cool that you chose to ignore it.

    I don't think I've ever suggested maxing DeRozan.

    Nobody is talking about signing Lowry to a big deal, however in 2017 FA you would have to if you intended to keep him, which would be quite risky considering he'd be 31-35 over the life of that new deal. Which for most players is a period of significant decline in production and durability.

    What you're calling a "reality" isn't one. It's just a possibility lol. This Lowry option might actually be better considering we already have a potential replacement locked in for 3 years for dirt cheap and his potential backup locked in for 4 on a rookie deal. Plus the title window with KL-KD-JV would be shorter than with DD-KD-JV because of his age. Also considering the fact that there is a lot of star power at PG, it's incredibly important to have an elite defender at that position, which CoJo has the potential, size and skillset to be. In previous discussions both you and DanH have agreed with me that CoJo likely does have the skills to be a long-term starter down the line. Maybe he's another Lowry where when he finally gets the chance to run the show he shines... and he'd be 25 next year.

    That question is kind of silly. I mean in my scenario we're basically trading Lowry for KD/Horford AND picks (from wherever he gets dealt to). Isn't that a better trade? Or would you trade 2Pat+other bench players for KD/Horford? Answer to all those questions is yes lol.

    Here's the thing. I don't even have a problem with letting DD walk to sign KD, because obviously KD is a better player. But to me there are other options, some of them which may be better. You refuse to acknowledge those options because all you want is DD OFF THIS TEAM, and that's what makes this discussion difficult.

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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    If DD was one of the best 2 guards in the league there would be some form of advanced stat to #ProveEm but there is not.

    If you want to base your opinion on PPG then you're right.

    Max that mo'fo.


    Who is taking about signing Lowry to huge deal?

    Who else goes to make a max contract offer? DD cap hold nearly $3m more than Lowry salary.

    Or do you trade Lowry for future picks?


    Time to face reality that the BEAT way to get a real max talent in FA in 2016 is to let DD walk.

    Is there anyone here who would straight up trade DD for KD or Horford? Because that is the choice over stripping starters on value contracts, bench, prospects, and future picks to keep a volume scorer who is average defender on opposition weaker wing threat.

    Leave a comment:


  • special1
    replied
    JWash wrote: View Post
    On a cheap contract for 1 more year (2016/17) after this upcoming one and then in 2017 you've got to decide whether to pay a 31 year old PG with an injury history and how much to pay him in order to keep him. Plus the window would be shorter. With DD you're basically signing him through his prime so barring some type of injury you wouldn't really expect a drop in production from age 26-30.



    I'm not necessarily saying that DD is key to getting Durant, in fact I didn't even mention that in my post. I just think it would actually be less risky to move Lowry instead, instead of the plan being to let DD walk. That way if you don't get Durant you just keep DD/Lowry and if you do get Durant then you re-sign DD as well, trade Lowry to a team for picks (which should be easy as fuck because of how many teams will have cap space and how few all-star FAs there are). Then you've got a core of DD-KD-JV locked in until the end of the decade and all in or heading into their primes in JV's case.

    This is obviously a distinct possibility, and it COULD be Masai's plan. What I'm debating is the sentiment that DD has to be let go (or even should be let go) in order to sign Durant.
    JWash - You're making too much sense here.

    The people who dislike Demar refuse to accept this possibility.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  • JWash
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    DD prime has nothing to do with producing wins.

    He has only managed to be above average in 1 of 6 seasons.

    .....but he works hard.


    Lowry coming off the books gives more cap space in 2017. Meanwhile the Raptors have 2 PGs waiting on the bench that could take his place.

    For the amount of posts screaming about other options, seems it is cut and dry on Lowry.
    So if you're planning to replace Lowry in a season anyway... why not do it now and keep the guy who's likely going to retain the same value he has now over the life of his next deal? Or is that a crazy proposition?

    I don't care that DeRozan works hard or not the only relevance there is that he keeps in good shape so he rarely gets hurt, don't lump me in with the DeRozan fans who think we should pay him because of that. I want to keep him because he's one of the best 2-guards in the league and would likely retain his value over the life of his next deal. Idk if I can say the same about signing Lowry to a large deal in 2017 where he would be 31-35 years old.

    And trading Lowry to free room for KD is just one option. Could also move bench players. Or hell we could trade Carroll who plays the same position as Durant. My issue is that some of you are letting your dislike for DeRozan cloud your view of these other options. I get that you want DeRozan gone, but that isn't the only way or even necessarily the smartest way to get Durant here.
    Last edited by JWash; Sat Aug 29, 2015, 11:39 AM.

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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    DD prime has nothing to do with producing wins.

    He has only managed to be above average in 1 of 6 seasons.

    .....but he works hard.


    Lowry coming off the books gives more cap space in 2017. Meanwhile the Raptors have 2 PGs waiting on the bench that could take his place.

    For the amount of posts screaming about other options, seems it is cut and dry on Lowry.

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  • JWash
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    So send out a guy who helps win on a cheap contract to keep a guy who doesn't produce wins but is 26/27?

    *sigh*
    On a cheap contract for 1 more year (2016/17) after this upcoming one and then in 2017 you've got to decide whether to pay a 31 year old PG with an injury history and how much to pay him in order to keep him. Plus the window would be shorter. With DD you're basically signing him through his prime so barring some type of injury you wouldn't really expect a drop in production from age 26-30.

    DanH wrote: View Post
    I agree with the sentiment, but the logic is pretty clear - if keeping DD is key to the Durant pitch, then his value is much higher than his basketball impact.
    I'm not necessarily saying that DD is key to getting Durant, in fact I didn't even mention that in my post. I just think it would actually be less risky to move Lowry instead, instead of the plan being to let DD walk. That way if you don't get Durant you just keep DD/Lowry and if you do get Durant then you re-sign DD as well, trade Lowry to a team for picks (which should be easy as fuck because of how many teams will have cap space and how few all-star FAs there are). Then you've got a core of DD-KD-JV locked in until the end of the decade and all in or heading into their primes in JV's case.

    This is obviously a distinct possibility, and it COULD be Masai's plan. What I'm debating is the sentiment that DD has to be let go (or even should be let go) in order to sign Durant.

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  • DanH
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    So send out a guy who helps win on a cheap contract to keep a guy who doesn't produce wins but is 26/27?

    *sigh*
    I agree with the sentiment, but the logic is pretty clear - if keeping DD is key to the Durant pitch, then his value is much higher than his basketball impact.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    So send out a guy who helps win on a cheap contract to keep a guy who doesn't produce wins but is 26/27?

    *sigh*

    Leave a comment:


  • JWash
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Would need to move Lowry for nothing (tough to do). And the point of waiting for 2017 to let him go is to give Joseph time to be ready to take over the starting spot.
    Or trade him to a team that might actually want him (like the Knicks for example) for picks.

    I don't see how it would be so difficult to trade an all-star PG into cap space when almost all the teams in the league would have enough cap space to absorb his contract lol. In fact we'd even have the advantage with Lowry of likely being able to deal him AFTER securing Durant's signature because he's a top 30 player in the league. So we can really mitigate some risk there. Don't sign KD, don't trade Lowry.

    Who knows how much time Joseph really needs to be ready? I mean next year is his 5th season and 2016-17 will be his 6th. If he's not ready by then, i don't see how he ever will be. He's spent 4 years behind Tony Parker under the best coach in the league, at this point it's gonna be a matter of opportunity for him not some kind of crazy increase in his ability. Kinda like how Lowry in his second year as a full time starter in Houston (6th season, 2011-12) however that did taper off because he got injured and then replaced by Dragic.

    Imo if CoJo is a starting caliber PG, he'll show it as soon as he gets a chance to start. He's been in the league long enough at this point.

    Plus the advantage of this is it takes us out of a difficult situation in 2017 free agency. If Lowry opts out that year, resigning him could become interesting. First of all it wouldn't be guaranteed, and secondly it might be difficult to give him the right number. Yes he would likely still be an all-star or near all-star caliber PG at that point but he'd also be 31 years old. Giving him big money long-term might be a risk.

    This could be the plan, that's what I'm suggesting. Just really disagree with the idea that targeting Durant means no DD.

    Would also allow us to act with lower risk in 2016 free agency. If the plan was to replace Durant with DD, if we spend a week or so trying to get Durant without telling DeRozan that he's going to get a deal from us, he will walk. Then if we don't get Durant we've lost out on both players and have a huge hole in the lineup.

    However in this scenario, we've CAN tell DD with certainty that he'll get a deal from us while still going after Durant. That way if you don't sign Durant you can still re-sign DD and then try again in 2017 free agency. If we do get KD then we're set with

    CoJo (25 - Locked in till 2018 FA)
    DD: (27 - Locked in till 2020 FA)
    KD: (28 - Locked in till 2021 FA)
    JV: (24 - Locked in till 2019 FA)

    Then make a serious run at Ibaka in 2017. Chance to play with a former teammate who he likely has a great relationship with, connection with Masai through basketball Africa, and a chance to win multiple titles. Would be a long title window with a starting five of CoJo/DD/KD/Ibaka/JV
    Last edited by JWash; Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:14 AM.

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  • DanH
    replied
    Would need to move Lowry for nothing (tough to do). And the point of waiting for 2017 to let him go is to give Joseph time to be ready to take over the starting spot.

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  • JWash
    replied
    Following the above the next year we'd have cap hits like

    CoJo: 7.6M
    DD: 20M
    KD: 27M
    Carroll: 14.2M
    JV: 15.5M
    Bruno: 2.5M
    Wright: 1.7M
    2016 Pick: 3M
    Total: $91.5M

    Leaving us with ~15M to work with under the 108M salary cap. Maybe make a few moves, preferably moving on from a then 31 year old Carroll leaving us with ~30M to spend. Use Masai's African connections to bring in Serge I-BLOCK-A. Likely wouldn't cost the full mid-max, but maybe close to it (~22M). In that case it may be a tight squeeze but perhaps we could keep Patterson's cap hold on the books... Leaving us with this super team ready to take home the 2017-18 title

    PG: Cory Joseph/Delon Wright
    SG: DeRozan/(2016 pick?)
    SF: Durant/Caboclo
    PF: Ibaka/2Pat
    C: Jonas/

    Wow.

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  • JWash
    replied
    Hmm so if Lowry is the one who isn't part of the future plans (very possible, about to hit 30, we've signed and drafted 2 potential replacements long-term, high-usage PG while CoJo is a lower usage, defensive minded one). We're looking at roughly

    Corey Joseph: 7.3M
    DeMar DeRozan: 15M (Cap Hold)
    DeMarre Carroll: 14.2M
    Jonas Valanciunas: 14.4M
    Patrick Patterson: 6.1M
    Bruno Caboclo: 1.6M
    Delon Wright: 1.6M
    2016 Knicks Pick: 2.0M
    Total: $62.2M

    Leaves us with ~25M to sign KD. Might even be able to keep Biyombo depending on what the cap comes in at

    PG: CoJo/Delon
    SG: DeRozan/
    SF: Durant/Carroll/Bruno
    PF: 2Pat/Carroll/Bruno
    C: JV/

    And the 2016 pick(s). Maybe look to flip Carroll or DD down the line for a star at the PF spot. Very interesting.

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