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  • special1
    replied
    JWash wrote: View Post
    On a cheap contract for 1 more year (2016/17) after this upcoming one and then in 2017 you've got to decide whether to pay a 31 year old PG with an injury history and how much to pay him in order to keep him. Plus the window would be shorter. With DD you're basically signing him through his prime so barring some type of injury you wouldn't really expect a drop in production from age 26-30.



    I'm not necessarily saying that DD is key to getting Durant, in fact I didn't even mention that in my post. I just think it would actually be less risky to move Lowry instead, instead of the plan being to let DD walk. That way if you don't get Durant you just keep DD/Lowry and if you do get Durant then you re-sign DD as well, trade Lowry to a team for picks (which should be easy as fuck because of how many teams will have cap space and how few all-star FAs there are). Then you've got a core of DD-KD-JV locked in until the end of the decade and all in or heading into their primes in JV's case.

    This is obviously a distinct possibility, and it COULD be Masai's plan. What I'm debating is the sentiment that DD has to be let go (or even should be let go) in order to sign Durant.
    JWash - You're making too much sense here.

    The people who dislike Demar refuse to accept this possibility.




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  • JWash
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    DD prime has nothing to do with producing wins.

    He has only managed to be above average in 1 of 6 seasons.

    .....but he works hard.


    Lowry coming off the books gives more cap space in 2017. Meanwhile the Raptors have 2 PGs waiting on the bench that could take his place.

    For the amount of posts screaming about other options, seems it is cut and dry on Lowry.
    So if you're planning to replace Lowry in a season anyway... why not do it now and keep the guy who's likely going to retain the same value he has now over the life of his next deal? Or is that a crazy proposition?

    I don't care that DeRozan works hard or not the only relevance there is that he keeps in good shape so he rarely gets hurt, don't lump me in with the DeRozan fans who think we should pay him because of that. I want to keep him because he's one of the best 2-guards in the league and would likely retain his value over the life of his next deal. Idk if I can say the same about signing Lowry to a large deal in 2017 where he would be 31-35 years old.

    And trading Lowry to free room for KD is just one option. Could also move bench players. Or hell we could trade Carroll who plays the same position as Durant. My issue is that some of you are letting your dislike for DeRozan cloud your view of these other options. I get that you want DeRozan gone, but that isn't the only way or even necessarily the smartest way to get Durant here.
    Last edited by JWash; Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:39 AM.

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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    DD prime has nothing to do with producing wins.

    He has only managed to be above average in 1 of 6 seasons.

    .....but he works hard.


    Lowry coming off the books gives more cap space in 2017. Meanwhile the Raptors have 2 PGs waiting on the bench that could take his place.

    For the amount of posts screaming about other options, seems it is cut and dry on Lowry.

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  • JWash
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    So send out a guy who helps win on a cheap contract to keep a guy who doesn't produce wins but is 26/27?

    *sigh*
    On a cheap contract for 1 more year (2016/17) after this upcoming one and then in 2017 you've got to decide whether to pay a 31 year old PG with an injury history and how much to pay him in order to keep him. Plus the window would be shorter. With DD you're basically signing him through his prime so barring some type of injury you wouldn't really expect a drop in production from age 26-30.

    DanH wrote: View Post
    I agree with the sentiment, but the logic is pretty clear - if keeping DD is key to the Durant pitch, then his value is much higher than his basketball impact.
    I'm not necessarily saying that DD is key to getting Durant, in fact I didn't even mention that in my post. I just think it would actually be less risky to move Lowry instead, instead of the plan being to let DD walk. That way if you don't get Durant you just keep DD/Lowry and if you do get Durant then you re-sign DD as well, trade Lowry to a team for picks (which should be easy as fuck because of how many teams will have cap space and how few all-star FAs there are). Then you've got a core of DD-KD-JV locked in until the end of the decade and all in or heading into their primes in JV's case.

    This is obviously a distinct possibility, and it COULD be Masai's plan. What I'm debating is the sentiment that DD has to be let go (or even should be let go) in order to sign Durant.

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  • DanH
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    So send out a guy who helps win on a cheap contract to keep a guy who doesn't produce wins but is 26/27?

    *sigh*
    I agree with the sentiment, but the logic is pretty clear - if keeping DD is key to the Durant pitch, then his value is much higher than his basketball impact.

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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    So send out a guy who helps win on a cheap contract to keep a guy who doesn't produce wins but is 26/27?

    *sigh*

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  • JWash
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Would need to move Lowry for nothing (tough to do). And the point of waiting for 2017 to let him go is to give Joseph time to be ready to take over the starting spot.
    Or trade him to a team that might actually want him (like the Knicks for example) for picks.

    I don't see how it would be so difficult to trade an all-star PG into cap space when almost all the teams in the league would have enough cap space to absorb his contract lol. In fact we'd even have the advantage with Lowry of likely being able to deal him AFTER securing Durant's signature because he's a top 30 player in the league. So we can really mitigate some risk there. Don't sign KD, don't trade Lowry.

    Who knows how much time Joseph really needs to be ready? I mean next year is his 5th season and 2016-17 will be his 6th. If he's not ready by then, i don't see how he ever will be. He's spent 4 years behind Tony Parker under the best coach in the league, at this point it's gonna be a matter of opportunity for him not some kind of crazy increase in his ability. Kinda like how Lowry in his second year as a full time starter in Houston (6th season, 2011-12) however that did taper off because he got injured and then replaced by Dragic.

    Imo if CoJo is a starting caliber PG, he'll show it as soon as he gets a chance to start. He's been in the league long enough at this point.

    Plus the advantage of this is it takes us out of a difficult situation in 2017 free agency. If Lowry opts out that year, resigning him could become interesting. First of all it wouldn't be guaranteed, and secondly it might be difficult to give him the right number. Yes he would likely still be an all-star or near all-star caliber PG at that point but he'd also be 31 years old. Giving him big money long-term might be a risk.

    This could be the plan, that's what I'm suggesting. Just really disagree with the idea that targeting Durant means no DD.

    Would also allow us to act with lower risk in 2016 free agency. If the plan was to replace Durant with DD, if we spend a week or so trying to get Durant without telling DeRozan that he's going to get a deal from us, he will walk. Then if we don't get Durant we've lost out on both players and have a huge hole in the lineup.

    However in this scenario, we've CAN tell DD with certainty that he'll get a deal from us while still going after Durant. That way if you don't sign Durant you can still re-sign DD and then try again in 2017 free agency. If we do get KD then we're set with

    CoJo (25 - Locked in till 2018 FA)
    DD: (27 - Locked in till 2020 FA)
    KD: (28 - Locked in till 2021 FA)
    JV: (24 - Locked in till 2019 FA)

    Then make a serious run at Ibaka in 2017. Chance to play with a former teammate who he likely has a great relationship with, connection with Masai through basketball Africa, and a chance to win multiple titles. Would be a long title window with a starting five of CoJo/DD/KD/Ibaka/JV
    Last edited by JWash; Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:14 AM.

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  • DanH
    replied
    Would need to move Lowry for nothing (tough to do). And the point of waiting for 2017 to let him go is to give Joseph time to be ready to take over the starting spot.

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  • JWash
    replied
    Following the above the next year we'd have cap hits like

    CoJo: 7.6M
    DD: 20M
    KD: 27M
    Carroll: 14.2M
    JV: 15.5M
    Bruno: 2.5M
    Wright: 1.7M
    2016 Pick: 3M
    Total: $91.5M

    Leaving us with ~15M to work with under the 108M salary cap. Maybe make a few moves, preferably moving on from a then 31 year old Carroll leaving us with ~30M to spend. Use Masai's African connections to bring in Serge I-BLOCK-A. Likely wouldn't cost the full mid-max, but maybe close to it (~22M). In that case it may be a tight squeeze but perhaps we could keep Patterson's cap hold on the books... Leaving us with this super team ready to take home the 2017-18 title

    PG: Cory Joseph/Delon Wright
    SG: DeRozan/(2016 pick?)
    SF: Durant/Caboclo
    PF: Ibaka/2Pat
    C: Jonas/

    Wow.

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  • JWash
    replied
    Hmm so if Lowry is the one who isn't part of the future plans (very possible, about to hit 30, we've signed and drafted 2 potential replacements long-term, high-usage PG while CoJo is a lower usage, defensive minded one). We're looking at roughly

    Corey Joseph: 7.3M
    DeMar DeRozan: 15M (Cap Hold)
    DeMarre Carroll: 14.2M
    Jonas Valanciunas: 14.4M
    Patrick Patterson: 6.1M
    Bruno Caboclo: 1.6M
    Delon Wright: 1.6M
    2016 Knicks Pick: 2.0M
    Total: $62.2M

    Leaves us with ~25M to sign KD. Might even be able to keep Biyombo depending on what the cap comes in at

    PG: CoJo/Delon
    SG: DeRozan/
    SF: Durant/Carroll/Bruno
    PF: 2Pat/Carroll/Bruno
    C: JV/

    And the 2016 pick(s). Maybe look to flip Carroll or DD down the line for a star at the PF spot. Very interesting.

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  • raptors999
    replied
    Heatdreamer wrote: View Post
    If DD scores 17-20 points a game, and is healthy enough, to continue to do so at 26 years old, and you can sign him to a 4/20. Why dont you look to improve in other areas, such has enhancing the potential of your bench. Sure it would be great to have a superstar to carry your team, but as you can see you require support players to achieve this.
    Who is it for the Raptors if you sign KD, and dont sign DD, is KL your Russell Westbrook at the age of 30? JV is a better version of Steven Adams or Mitch McGary.
    Depends on how many shots and touches he needs to score 17-20. Alan Anderson scored close to 17 per 36 on the Raptors

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  • Heatdreamer
    replied
    If DD scores 17-20 points a game, and is healthy enough, to continue to do so at 26 years old, and you can sign him to a 4/20. Why dont you look to improve in other areas, such has enhancing the potential of your bench. Sure it would be great to have a superstar to carry your team, but as you can see you require support players to achieve this.
    Who is it for the Raptors if you sign KD, and dont sign DD, is KL your Russell Westbrook at the age of 30? JV is a better version of Steven Adams or Mitch McGary.

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  • JWash
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    Anything is possible.. but DD's cap hold is $15,075,000. To have enough to sign KD and keep DD, the Raptors would have to let go of 2Pat, CoJo, Wright or Bebe (without getting any salary back) and another asset (say Toronto's 2016 first) with JJ, Scola and TR renounced/moved and hoping Biyombo drops his player option

    OR

    Trade Carroll (without getting any salary back) and another asset (like Bebe or Wright - Toronto's draft pick would not be enough) with JJ, Scola and TR renounced/moved and also hoping Biyombo drops his player option.

    OR

    Trade Lowry (without getting any salary back) and two assets (like Bebe and Wright) with JJ, Scola and TR renounced/moved and also hoping Biyombo drops his player option.


    The first package would make a team dealing a superstar blush. The second would mean Masai believes that DD is more valuable than Carroll/Bebe or Carroll/Wright. I don't believe the third option would exist.. Lowry is more valuable than DD.

    Will be interesting to see what Masai does in the 2016 draft.. that's when we'll probably get an idea as to what direction he's heading.
    Agree with this, my point was just that there are options available to keep DD in the event that Durant wants to sign here. What Masai is actually going to do remains to be seen. Maybe he views DD in the same way as Casey... good enough for now but if he can be replaced with a better option (which KD obviously is) then do so. Or maybe he views DD as an integral piece and thinks he would play well with KD as the #2 guy.

    People acting like they know what Masai's plan is are kind of out of line. Most people would've bet mad money right after the playoffs that Casey would get fired this offseason (including myself) and it didn't happen. The fact is we really don't know what Masai is going to do, we can only speculate.

    Some of you are saying that Masai wouldn't be willing to part with role players/prospects to retain DD and sign KD. But would he be willing to let an all-star SG and his 2nd most valuable asset (after JV) walk for nothing instead? Really remains to be seen what Masai's M.O. is. Maybe he doesn't even KNOW right now and wants to see how DD plays this year.

    EDIT:

    For all we know it's Lowry who isn't part of Masai's long-term plans. He's an expiring contract in 2016-17, and will be 30 years old. Plus Masai already signed a guy who could potentially replace him and drafted a guy who could back that guy up so... like I said we don't know.
    Last edited by JWash; Thu Aug 27, 2015, 10:58 AM.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    Anything is possible.. but DD's cap hold is $15,075,000. To have enough to sign KD and keep DD, the Raptors would have to let go of 2Pat, CoJo, Wright or Bebe (without getting any salary back) and another asset (say Toronto's 2016 first) with JJ, Scola and TR renounced/moved and hoping Biyombo drops his player option

    OR

    Trade Carroll (without getting any salary back) and another asset (like Bebe or Wright - Toronto's draft pick would not be enough) with JJ, Scola and TR renounced/moved and also hoping Biyombo drops his player option.

    OR

    Trade Lowry (without getting any salary back) and two assets (like Bebe and Wright) with JJ, Scola and TR renounced/moved and also hoping Biyombo drops his player option.


    The first package would make a team dealing a superstar blush. The second would mean Masai believes that DD is more valuable than Carroll/Bebe or Carroll/Wright. I don't believe the third option would exist.. Lowry is more valuable than DD.

    Will be interesting to see what Masai does in the 2016 draft.. that's when we'll probably get an idea as to what direction he's heading.

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  • JWash
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    OK, how about this?

    Either DD is not involved in any potential KD pitch, or Masai royally screwed the pooch the last couple off-seasons preparing for said pitch (which, considering it would be a franchise changing acquisition, means a lot).
    I disagree. There's no way to really know whether DD is part of the plan or not. I mean many raps fans thought he'd get dealt in the off season but he wasn't. To me Masai seems like a guy who likes to retain talent when he can. So I could see DD still being involved if we want KD.

    I get that some of you don't want him to be a part of this team anymore, so you're only really looking at that side of it. I get that perspective but I think there are a whole lot of other angles to it as well.

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