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Raptors Salary Cap Situation (and planning for the future)

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  • DanH
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    So you're saying all those years of hanging onto Zubcic and Prentezis's rights, we were offering them contracts and they just chose to never came aboard? (maybe this was due to the previous CBA). I thought the great thing about 2nd rounders was that they weren't guaranteed a contract. And why don't they have a cap hold if you have to tender them a contract?

    Either way, I don't think it's that out of line to tell a 2nd rounder that there isn't room on the roster for him this year, but that he'll be taken care of in Toronto, in our training facilities, in our organization, living expenses taken care of, and that he'll get a 3 or 4 year deal the following year.

    If we have to tend the minimum, so be it, but I think Masai will have some very persuasive convos telling him to come aboard with the 905s, or finding him a (much) more lucrative deal in Europe. If we have 15 players, as I think we soon will, I guess his alternative is to take the nonguaranteed minimum deal, make a few grand, get waived after training camp, and then try to find another team.
    Yes, Zubcic or Printezis could have paid their buyouts from their European contracts, and signed a fully unguaranteed deal here against the team's wishes only to be immediately waived and then be free to pursue offers from other teams. But neither were ever going to get a contract offer here, so why would they do that?

    They essentially do have a cap hold - they are offered a deal at the minimum salary, which is also the hold that is applied to empty roster spots. So any empty roster spot can represent their cap hold. And failing that, they can be signed to that tender deal with the minimum exception, so no cap space is needed to sign them if it comes down to it.

    And if he signs the tender, and he is waived before the season, he gets zero dollars. And we lose his draft rights.

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Any draft pick has to be extended a contract every summer or you lose their rights. First round draft picks qualifying tender is an 80% rookie scale deal. Second rounders it is a one year fully unguaranteed minimum salary contract. You can instead offer a different contract, but those are the minimum required.
    So you're saying all those years of hanging onto Zubcic and Prentezis's rights, we were offering them contracts and they just chose to never came aboard? (maybe this was due to the previous CBA). I thought the great thing about 2nd rounders was that they weren't guaranteed a contract. And why don't they have a cap hold if you have to tender them a contract?

    Either way, I don't think it's that out of line to tell a 2nd rounder that there isn't room on the roster for him this year, but that he'll be taken care of in Toronto, in our training facilities, in our organization, living expenses taken care of, and that he'll get a 3 or 4 year deal the following year.

    If we have to tend the minimum, so be it, but I think Masai will have some very persuasive convos telling him to come aboard with the 905s, or finding him a (much) more lucrative deal in Europe. If we have 15 players, as I think we soon will, I guess his alternative is to take the nonguaranteed minimum deal, make a few grand, get waived after training camp, and then try to find another team.
    Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Sat Jul 18, 2015, 07:10 PM.

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    I understand Dan's reasoning, but I fail to understand yours. Yeah, what you suggest is better for the Raptors, but what incentive is there for Daniels in your scenario? Daniels agent would tell the Raps nicely to go fuck themselves, there's teams out there that would offer more money and an easier path to an NBA pay cheque.
    Daniels is a 2nd round pick, most of whom never set foot in the league, coming off injury. The incentive is that he gets to continue playing with his teammates, who he's already starting to build relationships with, and ingratiate himself to the organization that owns his NBA rights. You think Daniels has leverage at this point? His alternative is to sign with a team in Europe, which is probably just fine from the Raptors point of view - hold onto his rights whilst he continues developing.

    Am I missing something here?

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  • DanH
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    2nd rounders have to be extended qualifying offers? That's news to me.

    This is a rare situation, with the best comparison being Thanassis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think NYC's development team is also in their back yard. If Daniels hadn't gotten hurt, and Powell hadn't vaulted over him, I'd be all for adding him to the roster. But stuff happened, and a hobbled Daniels isn't in the best position to negotiate. He is, however, in a good place to get cared for and develop his game, even if he can't get rich doing so.

    The Raptors should want to make the best use of the 905s as is possible, and that includes having 2nd rounders play there before signing to engender themselves to the organization and the other players. Now, maybe Daniels was told that he'd be signed, and maybe that's an agreement you honour. Otherwise, it makes sense to ask your 2nd rounders to try to make the main squad and play for the 905s or elsewhere if they can't.
    Any draft pick has to be extended a contract every summer or you lose their rights. First round draft picks qualifying tender is an 80% rookie scale deal. Second rounders it is a one year fully unguaranteed minimum salary contract. You can instead offer a different contract, but those are the minimum required.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3inthekeon
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    2nd rounders have to be extended qualifying offers? That's news to me.

    This is a rare situation, with the best comparison being Thanassis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think NYC's development team is also in their back yard. If Daniels hadn't gotten hurt, and Powell hadn't vaulted over him, I'd be all for adding him to the roster. But stuff happened, and a hobbled Daniels isn't in the best position to negotiate. He is, however, in a good place to get cared for and develop his game, even if he can't get rich doing so.

    The Raptors should want to make the best use of the 905s as is possible, and that includes having 2nd rounders play there before signing to engender themselves to the organization and the other players. Now, maybe Daniels was told that he'd be signed, and maybe that's an agreement you honour. Otherwise, it makes sense to ask your 2nd rounders to try to make the main squad and play for the 905s or elsewhere if they can't.
    I understand Dan's reasoning, but I fail to understand yours. Yeah, what you suggest is better for the Raptors, but what incentive is there for Daniels in your scenario? Daniels agent would tell the Raps nicely to go fuck themselves, there's teams out there that would offer more money and an easier path to an NBA pay cheque.

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  • DanH
    replied
    With Biyombo becoming official, that confirms that the Raptors kept de Colo's rights and signed Powell to between the min and 700k. They have one roster spot left and can only offer the minimum exception (max two years). Or trade guys, as always. In theory they could sign de Colo but that seems unlikely.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Katman wrote: View Post
    I would prefer they keep one roster spot open to better facilitate a trade tis season or sign someone to 10 days to plug holes as the needs arise.
    But they could waive a guy anytime. If Daniels for example was not working out, and they wanted to do a trade with more incoming players, they would just waive him first.

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  • Katman
    replied
    I would prefer they keep one roster spot open to better facilitate a trade tis season or sign someone to 10 days to plug holes as the needs arise.

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    And how do you convince him to sign with the 905? He already took direction last year to sign with an Australian team (where he would make less than he would in Europe), probably on the promise of an NBA deal this summer. To ask him to take a 25k salary would be insulting.

    Keep in mind to keep his rights the Raptors have to extend a qualifying tender - an unguaranteed 1 year minimum deal. Sure, if he signs it you could waive him, but then you don't have any rights to him and he can go sign wherever he wants.

    It is rare to be able to pull off what you are suggesting, as any player good enough to be drafted is usually good enough to get paid a decent wage somewhere. It is the undrafted players that take the chance of the D-League contract, mostly, hoping to be seen by an NBA team and get a 10 day callup (in which they would make more than they would make for the entire year in the D-League) or potentially more, since their earning potential elsewhere is so low.

    Daniels already took one for the team last season by not signing his qualifying tender, allowing us to retain his rights. But you start pushing him backwards instead of forward (as a D-League signing would surely be), and that good will can disappear quickly.
    2nd rounders have to be extended qualifying offers? That's news to me.

    This is a rare situation, with the best comparison being Thanassis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think NYC's development team is also in their back yard. If Daniels hadn't gotten hurt, and Powell hadn't vaulted over him, I'd be all for adding him to the roster. But stuff happened, and a hobbled Daniels isn't in the best position to negotiate. He is, however, in a good place to get cared for and develop his game, even if he can't get rich doing so.

    The Raptors should want to make the best use of the 905s as is possible, and that includes having 2nd rounders play there before signing to engender themselves to the organization and the other players. Now, maybe Daniels was told that he'd be signed, and maybe that's an agreement you honour. Otherwise, it makes sense to ask your 2nd rounders to try to make the main squad and play for the 905s or elsewhere if they can't.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    But Daniels is still an asset in your system if he just signs with the 905s, arguably more of one with his clock not started. That would allow you to have 4 of your youth development program playing together in the D-league rather than just 3 at a time.
    And how do you convince him to sign with the 905? He already took direction last year to sign with an Australian team (where he would make less than he would in Europe), probably on the promise of an NBA deal this summer. To ask him to take a 25k salary would be insulting.

    Keep in mind to keep his rights the Raptors have to extend a qualifying tender - an unguaranteed 1 year minimum deal. Sure, if he signs it you could waive him, but then you don't have any rights to him and he can go sign wherever he wants.

    It is rare to be able to pull off what you are suggesting, as any player good enough to be drafted is usually good enough to get paid a decent wage somewhere. It is the undrafted players that take the chance of the D-League contract, mostly, hoping to be seen by an NBA team and get a 10 day callup (in which they would make more than they would make for the entire year in the D-League) or potentially more, since their earning potential elsewhere is so low.

    Daniels already took one for the team last season by not signing his qualifying tender, allowing us to retain his rights. But you start pushing him backwards instead of forward (as a D-League signing would surely be), and that good will can disappear quickly.

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Yeah, you can find value, especially when you have a position of real need. But when you are 10 deep in legit NBA players, odds are that value might never see the floor even if there is value there to be found. Weighing the odds of needing a third string vet at a position for a long stretch (and considering the positional versatility of many of our players), as well as the odds of finding said diamond in the rough with a veteran minimum deal, against the benefits of establishing another young asset in your system... Seems like a no-brainer to me.
    But Daniels is still an asset in your system if he just signs with the 905s, arguably more of one with his clock not started. That would allow you to have 4 of your youth development program playing together in the D-league rather than just 3 at a time.

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  • DanH
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Good points.

    And overall I agree.

    However sometimes you can find real value on minimum deals as well.

    Aminu and Ed Davis were just 2 examples last year.
    Yeah, you can find value, especially when you have a position of real need. But when you are 10 deep in legit NBA players, odds are that value might never see the floor even if there is value there to be found. Weighing the odds of needing a third string vet at a position for a long stretch (and considering the positional versatility of many of our players), as well as the odds of finding said diamond in the rough with a veteran minimum deal, against the benefits of establishing another young asset in your system... Seems like a no-brainer to me.

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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    You'd have to go non-guaranteed, and in that case you lose his draft rights.

    I would much prefer having Daniels there rather than a vet who will contribute nothing. Dorell Wright would be a good pickup, but I doubt he signs for the minimum.

    Look at the playing time Fields and Stiemsma got last year. Those spots are never used.

    In general, I would much prefer a young piece be signed to fill a depth role than a vet that every other team has decided is not worth spending an exception or cap room on.
    Good points.

    And overall I agree.

    However sometimes you can find real value on minimum deals as well.

    Aminu and Ed Davis were just 2 examples last year.

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  • DanH
    replied
    You'd have to go non-guaranteed, and in that case you lose his draft rights.

    I would much prefer having Daniels there rather than a vet who will contribute nothing. Dorell Wright would be a good pickup, but I doubt he signs for the minimum.

    Look at the playing time Fields and Stiemsma got last year. Those spots are never used.

    In general, I would much prefer a young piece be signed to fill a depth role than a vet that every other team has decided is not worth spending an exception or cap room on.

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    It is enough. We would need only 525k, we have about 700k with de Colo on the cap.

    I'd be tempted to actually sign Daniels to a 1 year deal at the minimum (using the min salary exception). That keeps his rights and keeps him in the system while he rehabs (though in theory he should be healthy by training camp) and he can spend time down in the D-League while collecting a decent pay.
    Really? I'm not that tempted. It's still a cap hold next year, versus none if we have him wait, and a roster spot that could be used for the likes of Dorrell Wright, or simple flexibility. Do we really want 5 spots out of 15 taken up with the youth movement, especially when we can only send down a limited number to the 905s?

    It seems reasonable to allocate 1 spot to our 2nd round rooks. If Daniels can beat out Norm in training camp, the spots all his.

    Can we bump up his pay with a training camp contract? Or is the only avenue there one of these non-guaranteeds?
    Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Wed Jul 15, 2015, 02:37 PM.

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