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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    While Newfoundland has not completely shut their borders they've shut things down so drastically that now there is a supreme court challenge going to occur. Police have been out enforcing social distancing and have been given new, special powers during the crisis.While shut down to this degree the province now only has three active cases, all in hospital whereas last month they had hundreds. It looks like its a good example of what it takes to obliterate it.
    The NFLD law is clearly unconstitutional. Hell, most of what is going on is pretty clearly unconstitutional but no one seems to mind.

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    • slaw wrote: View Post

      I'm no expert but it seems to my maybe focusing on the LTC places and the people in them might have worked better than shutting down parks and schools.
      Age / comorbidity stratification was known by March from Italy. We chose to do nothing with that information.

      the pandemic has really thrown back the curtain on the fact that governments don't act on evidence, just opinions. Not that this was a secret before.

      In fairness the early data from China looked like a much higher mortality rate. But on the other hand, why the fuck did anyone believe the Chinese government's case numbers?

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      • slaw wrote: View Post

        The NFLD law is clearly unconstitutional. Hell, most of what is going on is pretty clearly unconstitutional but no one seems to mind.
        We will see when it goes to supreme court. In the meantime COVID19 is about to be wiped out of the province. Businesses will be able to reopen and start generating revenue again. The province fully committed and got the desired result, that's the point.

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        • Apollo wrote: View Post

          We will see when it goes to supreme court. In the meantime COVID19 is about to be wiped out of the province. Businesses will be able to reopen and start generating revenue again. The province fully committed and got the desired result, that's the point.
          to bold a statement, i think. no way to know how it will go, if it goes bad all that tyranny was for nothing. japan has done fine with almost 0 close downs. florida and texas are doing well.

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          • Apollo wrote: View Post

            We will see when it goes to supreme court. In the meantime COVID19 is about to be wiped out of the province. Businesses will be able to reopen and start generating revenue again. The province fully committed and got the desired result, that's the point.
            The ends justifies the means. Scary stuff, man.

            Sadly, the NFLD case won't be in the SCC for a long time, maybe even years as it isn't even being heard by the initial court until August. Again scary stuff given that we are supposed to live in a society where the rule of law applies.
            Last edited by slaw; Wed May 27th, 2020, 11:17 AM.

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            • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

              to bold a statement, i think. no way to know how it will go, if it goes bad all that tyranny was for nothing. japan has done fine with almost 0 close downs. florida and texas are doing well.
              They haven't had a new case in three weeks and the only three cases left are isolated in hospital. Its not that bold of a statement.

              America has been devasted by the virus. Already 100k confirmed death and insufficient testing to even know how many really have died. Reports of states lying about the death totals. Yes, America is a shining beacon of truth and success right now in the face of COVID19.

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              • slaw wrote: View Post

                The ends justifies the means. Scary stuff, man.

                Sadly, the NFLD case won't be in the SCC for a long time, maybe even years as it isn't even being heard by the initial court until August. Again scary stuff given that we are supposed to live in a society where the rule of law applies.
                I never said that. I said you don't know the verdict. If they broke the law there will be consequences. This is how this stuff always happens. The boundaries are pushed, it goes to supreme court and then a precedent is set one way or another.

                Based on my understanding, the supreme court heard the application to end the ban yesterday. Apparently those 'tyrants' are amateurs, not being able to drag out justice for years and all.
                Last edited by Apollo; Wed May 27th, 2020, 11:35 AM.

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                • Apollo wrote: View Post

                  They haven't had a new case in three weeks and the only three cases left are isolated in hospital. Its not that bold of a statement.

                  America has been devasted by the virus. Already 100k confirmed death and insufficient testing to even know how many really have died. Reports of states lying about the death totals. Yes, America is a shining beacon of truth and success right now in the face of COVID19.
                  i think the speculation on how it all opens up golden is to early. it's the mission accomplished meme. cautious optimism is probably all government severity is going to gain, and how many business are going under?

                  the bug came back in wuhan after they bolted people into their homes. how will they react on day 1 if someone new gets it? what measure is acceptable after the people have accepted this, and it didn't work?

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                  • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

                    i think the speculation on how it all opens up golden is to early. it's the mission accomplished meme. cautious optimism is probably all government severity is going to gain, and how many business are going under?

                    the bug came back in wuhan after they bolted people into their homes. how will they react on day 1 if someone new gets it? what measure is acceptable after the people have accepted this, and it didn't work?
                    A lot of good questions. I don't have all the answers, I'm just telling you what it happening in one part of the country using a lot of the same measures as the rest of the country, only slightly more locked down. These measures would never work in the states because of the constitution. Canada doesn't have that and there are good and bad things that come with that.

                    Anyway, it looks like what they're doing is working and they'll be able to reopen most things in June, restrictions are already lifting. How long it remains a success will probably come down to whether or not the supreme court swipes down their methods. They enacted the methods for two reasons:
                    1. People weren't listening to the self isolation request and COVID19 started spreading quickly.
                    2. People were entering the province without adhering to the 14 day isolation request. In fact apparently there were tourists touring the province in the first week of May from all over NA. Migrant workers were coming back and being spotted day one in stores, etc.
                    Without the power of law whatever measures they implemented would be ruined by those in the population who care for nothing or no one but themselves or themselves and their circle. This is clearly true in the states. There are hundreds of stories in the news detailing it.

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                    • And for the record I agree that its a horrible situation for businesses. The leaders of the country are stuck in a position where they know there are measures that can save lives but they also know such measures will hurt people financially. So what do they choose? Lives or money? They're choosing lives right now.

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                      • Apollo wrote: View Post

                        We will see when it goes to supreme court. In the meantime COVID19 is about to be wiped out of the province. Businesses will be able to reopen and start generating revenue again. The province fully committed and got the desired result, that's the point.
                        Newfoundland isn't exactly the same as the rest of Canada. Not sure if that could have been applied in Ontario & Quebec.

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                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          And for the record I agree that its a horrible situation for businesses. The leaders of the country are stuck in a position where they know there are measures that can save lives but they also know such measures will hurt people financially. So what do they choose? Lives or money? They're choosing lives right now.
                          Based on what we now know, that's a false choice. Isolate the elderly, get the sick out of LTC homes immediately and into the empty hospitals, keep the borders closed, and re-open everything else while encouraging people to behave with common sense. This strategy has now proven successful in many North American and European jurisdictions without a need for closing intra-country borders or shutting down businesses.

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                          • suspenders wrote: View Post

                            Newfoundland isn't exactly the same as the rest of Canada. Not sure if that could have been applied in Ontario & Quebec.
                            It could be more complicated, maybe not. Keep in mind it's NL & Labrador. There are maybe a dozen entry points. Does Manitoba for example have more entry points than that? I don't know.

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                            • slaw wrote: View Post

                              Based on what we now know, that's a false choice. Isolate the elderly, get the sick out of LTC homes immediately and into the empty hospitals, keep the borders closed, and re-open everything else while encouraging people to behave with common sense. This strategy has now proven successful in many North American and European jurisdictions without a need for closing intra-country borders or shutting down businesses.
                              But Slaw, closing the borders impacts businesses. Some depend on foreign migrant workers. Some depend on in person visitation by foreign industry experts. You're ok with hurting some businesses through government restrictions. Interesting.

                              Another thing, this isn't just about deaths. It's about the damage it does to the human body. It's about the lack of knowledge about the virus. You're firing off all these suggestions but are you an expert on the virus? If you are, how much knowledge do you really have about something the world's doesn't really understand?
                              Last edited by Apollo; Wed May 27th, 2020, 12:39 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Apollo wrote: View Post

                                But Slaw, closing the borders impacts businesses. Some depend on foreign migrant workers. Some depend on in person visitation by foreign industry experts. You're ok with hurting some businesses through government restrictions. Interesting.

                                Another thing, this isn't just about deaths. It's about the damage it does to the human body. It's about the lack of knowledge about the virus. You're firing off all these suggestions but are you an expert on the virus? If you are, how much knowledge do you really have about something the world's doesn't really understand?
                                i would rather canadians work those migrant workers jobs.

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