Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Everything Coronavirus

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Apollo wrote: View Post

    But Slaw, closing the borders impacts businesses. Some depend on foreign migrant workers. Some depend on in person visitation by foreign industry experts. You're ok with hurting some businesses through government restrictions. Interesting.

    Another thing, this isn't just about deaths. It's about the damage it does to the human body. It's about the lack of knowledge about the virus. You're firing off all these suggestions but are you an expert on the virus? If you are, how much knowledge do you really have about something the world's doesn't really understand?
    Closing borders has been used to fight pandemics since time immemorial. There's a reason.

    While I am not an expert on the virus I can look at what is happening in real life and draw conclusions about what is happening. I don't need to be a virologist to do that. Parts of Canada and the US are now outliers in their insistence on closing down things and there is very little evidence that such an approach is producing better results than places that are open. Again, you don't need to be an expert to see this anymore than you need to be an expert to know that nursing homes are the big problem we need to address.

    Comment


    • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

      i would rather canadians work those migrant workers jobs.
      Not that simple. I can't say all because I don't know but I do know some business must bring in migrant workers because they can't get the people to do the work here... And this isn't even just true for farming.

      Comment


      • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

        i would rather canadians work those migrant workers jobs.
        Lol Canadians don't want those jobs. That's why migrant workers end up doing them.
        It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

        Comment


        • slaw wrote: View Post

          Closing borders has been used to fight pandemics since time immemorial. There's a reason.

          While I am not an expert on the virus I can look at what is happening in real life and draw conclusions about what is happening. I don't need to be a virologist to do that. Parts of Canada and the US are now outliers in their insistence on closing down things and there is very little evidence that such an approach is producing better results than places that are open. Again, you don't need to be an expert to see this anymore than you need to be an expert to know that nursing homes are the big problem we need to address.
          Ok, so in the case of NL, they agree with you. So they closed their borders to the rest of Canada and only are allowing people in on a case by case basis. You and Miek just called such practices tyrannical and now here you are implying it is a valid option.

          To your second point, this isn't a situation where you can simply act for right now without risking severe long term implications later. Open it all back up and people who could be saved won't be saved due to a surge. Open it back up and people who might have fully recovered might be stuck with long term chronic life shortening conditions because the virus attacks the brain, the heart, the lungs, the liver, the immune system, etc. What if it wipes out a power plant or police force or a hospital staff or a military station or a governing house to the point where it can no longer effectively serve? What if one of your family members dies at home when they could have been saved if they could have received one of the limited treatments we have?

          Like you said, there's a reason humanity puts in restrictions during times of pandemic its because they have to do something and this is the best option available... Until it impacts people's wallets. Then the measures don't work and we'll cherry pick to prove that out. The whole situation sucks, it's horrible. Maybe you'll be right in the end but I'm not betting on it and personally I'm willing to make sacrifices in the short term to help limit the death and disease in the short and long term.

          Comment


          • Apollo wrote: View Post

            Ok, so in the case of NL, they agree with you. So they closed their borders to the rest of Canada and only are allowing people in on a case by case basis. You and Miek just called such practices tyrannical and now here you are implying it is a valid option.

            To your second point, this isn't a situation where you can simply act for right now without risking severe long term implications later. Open it all back up and people who could be saved won't be saved due to a surge. Open it back up and people who might have fully recovered might be stuck with long term chronic life shortening conditions because the virus attacks the brain, the heart, the lungs, the liver, the immune system, etc. What if it wipes out a power plant or police force or a hospital staff or a military station or a governing house to the point where it can no longer effectively serve? What if one of your family members dies at home when they could have been saved if they could have received one of the limited treatments we have?

            Like you said, there's a reason humanity puts in restrictions during times of pandemic its because they have to do something and this is the best option available... Until it impacts people's wallets. Then the measures don't work and we'll cherry pick to prove that out. The whole situation sucks, it's horrible. Maybe you'll be right in the end but I'm not betting on it and personally I'm willing to make sacrifices in the short term to help limit the death and disease in the short and long term.
            country borders, and provincial borders are different.

            what if someone you love starves to death now because we stayed closed to long? silly hypothetical. i think the point is going all in like this has not shown to be effective, it might here, but it came back in wuhan with even stricter conditions. we also don't know if any of your what if's are even really applicable. we do have real information about the break up of the most vulnerable. to me it seems it is worse case scenario is the only applicable here.

            we know what happens when economies collapse. we have current evidence that opening to a degree is safe

            Comment


            • Scraptor wrote: View Post

              Lol Canadians don't want those jobs. That's why migrant workers end up doing them.
              how much advertising is being made to target canadians? are you willing to pay more for food to encourage your fellow canadians to do those jobs? that money gets saved and sent home. it could stay here and make more money.

              Comment


              • Apollo wrote: View Post

                Not that simple. I can't say all because I don't know but I do know some business must bring in migrant workers because they can't get the people to do the work here... And this isn't even just true for farming.
                Veggie and fruit/wine area in Niagara predominantly use migrant workers who work harder and for less than people in Canada as part of their pay is food and lodging. The vast majority of their money can then be sent home. Some of these guys have been in Canada and away from their families 7-8 months a year for decades.

                None of those businesses have been held up waiting for that workforce other than a few weeks months ago. It's simply not true to say that closing the US border hurt anything other than tourist areas for the most part. Goods and services are moving and migrant workers are all here. They had to be quarantined upon arrival, no issues that I've heard of whatsoever.

                Comment


                • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

                  country borders, and provincial borders are different.
                  Why?

                  Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                  what if someone you love starves to death now because we stayed closed to long? silly hypothetical. i think the point is going all in like this has not shown to be effective, it might here
                  There are government subsidy programs to help people get through this. Do you have examples of groups of Canadians who cannot get access to these subsidies?

                  There is no government safety net if you're suffocating and can't see a doctor or get access to a ventilator. Pray there is a God I guess is plan B then.

                  Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                  but it came back in wuhan with even stricter conditions.
                  You can't believe anything coming from that lying, greedy communist government. They've lied about everything. They're the root cause of everything.

                  Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                  we also don't know if any of your what if's are even really applicable. we do have real information about the break up of the most vulnerable. to me it seems it is worse case scenario is the only applicable here.

                  we know what happens when economies collapse. we have current evidence that opening to a degree is safe
                  There's a lot of things we don't know when it comes to the virus and most of the world is choosing similar tactics to Canada. This similar conversation is ongoing everywhere on earth.

                  Comment


                  • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

                    how much advertising is being made to target canadians? are you willing to pay more for food to encourage your fellow canadians to do those jobs? that money gets saved and sent home. it could stay here and make more money.
                    Canadians don't want those jobs. I work with a couple farms that hire Mexican migrant workers and treat them pretty well. Those guys come here to work as much as is legally allowed for 5 months. They don't like being away from their families, they're here to make money and get back home. They're typically doing 60 hour, 6 day work weeks. They do this from spring to early fall then go home and these jobs don't even exits through the winter. Good luck finding Canadians for all these seasonal jobs year after year. These employers do hire as many locals as they can and fill the remaining position with migrant workers. It's a lot of work for the company, they manage the immigration, own houses that get used for half the year, provide vans, manage all the settlement issues, etc.

                    "Just pay people more" is easy to say and hard to do. An business only has so much margin and wages are usually your biggest expense by far. Plenty of business would go straight into the red just by giving a $0.50 increase across the board. What do you do with that?

                    And food is already a huge consumer expense, annoyingly high because of Canadian protectionism. Increasing Ag sector wages would get passed directly to the consumer. Can the working poor afford a 30% increase in food costs?

                    Final thought - migrant work can benefit everybody. It can help keep our food prices low. At the same time, the migrant workers who come here make far more money each growing season than they could ever make back home. Think of the incentive required to leave your family for half the year. That said, there are definitely employer abuses of migrant employees in Canada and that whole system needs better controls. Any migrant worker who complains doesn't get invited back next year. They all know that & they don't want to lose the opportunity. So they stay quiet.
                    Last edited by S.R.; Wed May 27th, 2020, 02:52 PM.
                    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                    Comment


                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      Why?


                      There are government subsidy programs to help people get through this. Do you have examples of groups of Canadians who cannot get access to these subsidies?

                      There is no government safety net if you're suffocating and can't see a doctor or get access to a ventilator. Pray there is a God I guess is plan B then.


                      You can't believe anything coming from that lying, greedy communist government. They've lied about everything. They're the root cause of everything.

                      There's a lot of things we don't know when it comes to the virus and most of the world is choosing similar tactics to Canada. This similar conversation is ongoing everywhere on earth.
                      yes, you can't believe them, so when they say something is a little bad? it means? not good, they love good. good is shouted from the mountain tops, and praised for days as something only the dear leader could do.

                      restricting the movement of citizens that aren't breaking laws is bad. protecting citizens from foreign threats is the job of the government. that Canadians are quick to accept this, even my mom says people should be arrested. that is bad. that means rights aren't really rights. they are rights when they are hard because they are rights. it is easy to use the gun to force a populace to do anything.

                      i used your silly hypothetical of not doing what you say as someone i know will die, so my mind must change. it is a silly argument. no one wants anyone to die. people are going to die.

                      Comment


                      • S.R. wrote: View Post

                        Canadians don't want those jobs. I work with a couple farms that hire Mexican migrant workers and treat them pretty well. Those guys come here to work as much as is legally allowed for 5 months. They don't like being away from their families, they're here to make money and get back home. They're typically doing 60 hour, 6 day work weeks. They do this from spring to early fall then go home and these jobs don't even exits through the winter. Good luck finding Canadians for all these seasonal jobs year after year. These employers do hire as many locals as they can and fill the remaining position with migrant workers. It's a lot of work for the company, they manage the immigration, own houses that get used for half the year, provide vans, manage all the settlement issues, etc.

                        "Just pay people more" is easy to say and hard to do. An business only has so much margin and wages are usually your biggest expense by far. Plenty of business would go straight into the red just by giving a $0.50 increase across the board. What do you do with that?

                        And food is already a huge consumer expense, annoyingly high because of Canadian protectionism. Increasing Ag sector wages would get passed directly to the consumer. Can the working poor afford a 30% increase in food costs?

                        Final thought - migrant work can benefit everybody. It can help keep our food prices low. At the same time, the migrant workers who come here make far more money each growing season than they could ever make back home. Think of the incentive required to leave your family for half the year. That said, there are definitely employer abuses of migrant employees in Canada and that whole system needs better controls. Any migrant worker who complains doesn't get invited back next year. They all know that & they don't want to lose the opportunity. So they stay quiet.
                        i agree with almost all of this. i am very against supply side economics, and agree that migrant workers can help us.

                        some migrant comes and works on the farm, great for him, bad for canada. he makes money that money goes to his home, and helps his economy. his job doesn't go to someone on welfare looking for anything to get off of welfare. we, as canadians, borrow money from migrant's country, and give it to welfare canadian to pay for the wages of migrant.

                        i don't think it would be easy, but it is the best for canada. easy is rarely best.

                        Comment


                        • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

                          yes, you can't believe them, so when they say something is a little bad? it means? not good, they love good. good is shouted from the mountain tops, and praised for days as something only the dear leader could do.

                          restricting the movement of citizens that aren't breaking laws is bad. protecting citizens from foreign threats is the job of the government. that Canadians are quick to accept this, even my mom says people should be arrested. that is bad. that means rights aren't really rights. they are rights when they are hard because they are rights. it is easy to use the gun to force a populace to do anything.

                          i used your silly hypothetical of not doing what you say as someone i know will die, so my mind must change. it is a silly argument. no one wants anyone to die. people are going to die.
                          You're missing a key detail here. Why are you believing them when they tell you they wiped it out? It's more likely it was still spreading and they lied about it because that's what they do.

                          Each province needs to do what they can to stop the spread within reason. NL caught numerous outsiders breaking isolation protocols so they said, nope. No more. No province will get it under control if they're unwilling to address those who don't care about anyone but themselves.

                          People will die anyway, yes. Everyone in this thread will die. It's a matter of when and how and it's pretty fucking pathetic if anyone in this thread dies from something that could be treated in a hospital but that service was unavailable to them.

                          Comment


                          • Further, you're not considering the mental and physical toll on the front line medical workers. If Canada opens like some of you want and what medical experts are predict happens then you're kidding yourself if you think the medical system won't buckle and not just for mathematical reasons. There is a human element to this, those doctors, nurses, technicians and support staff are not robots.

                            Comment


                            • Not to mention, all these people crying to open it up are not generally the ones suffering most. The people most affected by the virus are the ones (outside of LTC/seniors) who are still going to work every day - low income, vulnerable communities. They have to take public transport, have to come on regular contact with strangers at their jobs, don’t have proper PPE, etc.

                              Opening up gets you your massage, your basketball, your conveniences. Opening up puts more of the vulnerable at risk. But we don’t talk about that...
                              Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

                              Comment


                              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                                You're missing a key detail here. Why are you believing them when they tell you they wiped it out? It's more likely it was still spreading and they lied about it because that's what they do.
                                ok, i see. valid point, definitely a possibility.

                                Apollo wrote: View Post
                                Each province needs to do what they can to stop the spread within reason. NL caught numerous outsiders breaking isolation protocols so they said, nope. No more. No province will get it under control if they're unwilling to address those who don't care about anyone but themselves.

                                People will die anyway, yes. Everyone in this thread will die. It's a matter of when and how and it's pretty fucking pathetic if anyone in this thread dies from something that could be treated in a hospital but that service was unavailable to them.
                                yes, but the hospitals aren't over run. no one in here will die because they can't get service. the places in the world that didn't do what we did, aren't being over run. the places that hid what was happening while it spread all over the world were hit hard, and the first places that believed their bullshit.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X