Everything Coronavirus

[Apollo]

Bud, saying this as nicely as I can, you really need to understand when someone is just kidding around and relax. You seriously can't see what i did there?

Chill and don't think you have to defend everything or take offence so easily .... again, I mean that respectfully

I didn't get the humor but don't confuse that with offense. I took you seriously, I'll stop doing that. Noted. lol

[Apollo]

Hopefully he's alright. Young strong athlete in peak condition and all. There's a joke in there about him balling out for 45 & 19 but I don't wanna make it. Damn it, I did anyway.

The players need to stay in game shape and he's likely not the only one who exposed himself to it while trying to stay competitive for when the shots go live again.

[Apollo]

Lol, no. I was for drastic measures early on (closing borders, hiding away the young and elderly, masks, and shutdowns of high risk activities) when we knew nothing but the measure of this disease has been taken and while it is deadly for the elderly, people 18-55 have very little risk. When weighed against other factors there is little question that other than protecting vulnerable groups we should be going about our business. The idea of shutting down society for a year over this virus is patently insane and we never would have even considered any of this even 10 years ago but the world has gone mad and is run by idiots who cannot operate in complex environments or work through emergencies because they are not trained to do so.

Are they shutting down society for a year though? It looks to me they took drastic measures first to try to flatten the curve, to formulate a plan, to develop new rules, to educate businesses and the public. They've achieved a lot of that in some places in Canada and so now they will continue on with much less measures in place until there is a cure or a vaccine. In some places in Canada businesses are either open or are opening right now, they're going back at it... But with new restrictions in place to limit the spread of the disease.

As for the last part, how do you know what they would do ten years ago for a novel virus like this?

[S.R.]

Countries that took severe measures early still seem to have done the best. Just go straight from 0 to 100 and the whole thing takes 2-3 months. Canada's drawn in out more.

But long term I don't know. Even if a country has success initially, can you maintain that? What do you do, permanent travel restrictions? 14 day isolation for all travelers until when?

For the long term, the argument that you need to isolate and support the most vulnerable may make the most sense. I suppose until there's a vaccine that you'd give those people. Otherwise you have the same problem - e.g. someone with severe aathma (and their entire household?) would have to isolate...until when?

[Apollo]

Countries that took severe measures early still seem to have done the best. Just go straight from 0 to 100 and the whole thing takes 2-3 months. Canada's drawn in out more.

But long term I don't know. Even if a country has success initially, can you maintain that? What do you do, permanent travel restrictions? 14 day isolation for all travelers until when?

For the long term, the argument that you need to isolate and support the most vulnerable may make the most sense. I suppose until there's a vaccine that you'd give those people. Otherwise you have the same problem - e.g. someone with severe aathma (and their entire household?) would have to isolate...until when?

Based on communication I've read from a few few provincial health ministers it sounds like restrictions of some level will be in place until there is either a proven cure or vaccine. Restrictions are determined on the basis of the current level of outbreak of the disease. However, there's an Atlantic Canada bubble right now and there's a possibility that the bubble opens to Alberta soon. I am guessing that if it were January the push for these bubbles would be far less and possibly not a thing.

No clue if all the provinces are on the same page or not. No clue what Trudeau plans to do about foreign travel. Opening up to the US anytime soon seems like a bad move though. They're what we're trying to avoid being when it comes to COVID19 outbreak.

[G__Deane]

genuine question because i've heard this a bunch but never heard anyone offer up what that looks like... what does that look like? how do you protect the vulnerable with the rest of the population carrying on as normal? is every interaction with someone over 55 meant to take place with the PPE of a front line worker in NYC or italy a couple months ago? (except in reverse, with the vulnerable person in PPE)?

If they 100% locked long long term care homes (similar to what they eventually did anyways) and let the rest of businesses stay open (maybe even with the 2M restrictions), thousands of lives would have been saved. 82% of deaths were in long term care. + those outside who were health compromised. And you wouldn't have had tens of thousands of people behind on their mortgages and car payments and 80B in new debt for our kids to pay off.....

[Apollo]

What of the doctors, nurses, cooks, receptionists, cleaners, maintenance workers, etc. that must have access to these long term facilities in order to keep them running?

Also, if foresight was as accurate about the future as hindsight is about the past then the world would either be heaven on earth or uninhabitable rubble.

[S.R.]

One of the issues with a global vaccine as a solution is there will be piles of people pushing back on it. Just look at face masks.

Whoever's producing/controlling it will make billions off it, just that fact alone will drive the tinfoil hat cottage industry.

Some people don't like the government telling them what to wear, where to stand, where they can and can't go. Just wait until the government tells them they have to put a needle in their arm...

Wonder what liability will look like for people who resist/refuse. You skip out on the vaccine and take coronavirus into a LTC home 2 years from now, 7 people die. What happens? People were already starting to face criminal charges for coughing on someone as a 'joke.'

I am not a tinfoil hat guy but really wonder where you draw the line here in terms of government overreach. You can rationalize a lot of intervention in the name of public safety.

[Apollo]

One of the issues with a global vaccine as a solution is there will be piles of people pushing back on it. Just look at face masks.

Whoever's producing/controlling it will make billions off it, just that fact alone will drive the tinfoil hat cottage industry.

Some people don't like the government telling them what to wear, where to stand, where they can and can't go. Just wait until the government tells them they have to put a needle in their arm...

Wonder what liability will look like for people who resist/refuse. You skip out on the vaccine and take coronavirus into a LTC home 2 years from now, 7 people die. What happens? People were already starting to face criminal charges for coughing on someone as a 'joke.'

I am not a tinfoil hat guy but really wonder where you draw the line here in terms of government overreach. You can rationalize a lot of intervention in the name of public safety.

I don't think that they can legally force you to take a vaccination (thankfully we're not in communist China) but there are other likely effective methods they could deploy. They could make it so if you do not take the vaccination it causes inconveniences in your life.

As in a standardized immunization card recognized by all countries. Countries will just say you cannot enter because your papers are not in order. If they're really bold they could try to legislate something that gives employers the right in certain industries to mandate vaccination of COVID19 in order to work for that company but this likely won't fly with unions.

In any regard, this is why minority governments are the best configurations in democracy. Things move a little more slowly but more of the important discussions are had by all stakeholders.

[G__Deane]

What of the doctors, nurses, cooks, receptionists, cleaners, maintenance workers, etc. that must have access to these long term facilities in order to keep them running?

Also, if foresight was as accurate about the future as hindsight is about the past then the world would either be heaven on earth or uninhabitable rubble.

There are many long term care homes that essentially locked down and have zero COVID cases so far. We have another in town where a resident caught COVID on a hospital visit, came back to self isolation, recovered and zero passed on to others. Still no other cases there in 4 months. Obviously they all have "doctors, nurses, cooks, receptionists, cleaners, maintenance workers, etc." that have access to these long term facilities in order to keep them running

No plan would be perfect but clearly, thousands of lives would have been saved if all LTC had been similarly locked down early.

[Apollo]

There are many long term care homes that essentially locked down and have zero COVID cases so far. We have another in town where a resident caught COVID on a hospital visit, came back to self isolation, recovered and zero passed on to others. Still no other cases there in 4 months. Obviously they all have "doctors, nurses, cooks, receptionists, cleaners, maintenance workers, etc." that have access to these long term facilities in order to keep them running

No plan would be perfect but clearly, thousands of lives would have been saved if all LTC had been similarly locked down early.

You're suggesting to open it all wide open except long term care. You're suggesting that will save thousands of lives in a situation where all of society is wide open but these places because it worked in some places where they don't have society left wide open but they have locked down these homes.

What you're stating will be successful is different than what has been proven to be successful. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[KeonClark]

I don't think that they can legally force you to take a vaccination (thankfully we're not in communist China) but there are other likely effective methods they could deploy. They could make it so if you do not take the vaccination it causes inconveniences in your life.

As in a standardized immunization card recognized by all countries. Countries will just say you cannot enter because your papers are not in order. If they're really bold they could try to legislate something that gives employers the right in certain industries to mandate vaccination of COVID19 in order to work for that company but this likely won't fly with unions.

In any regard, this is why minority governments are the best configurations in democracy. Things move a little more slowly but more of the important discussions are had by all stakeholders.

You started by saying they can't force vaccination, this isn't a communist country, then veered dangerously close to dictator law anyway... "they could just make it so if you don't get it, you can't travel, or get a job in your field.....or vote, drive a motor vehicle, enter buildings..." sounds a lot like forced vac without being forced vac.

[slaw]

genuine question because i've heard this a bunch but never heard anyone offer up what that looks like... what does that look like? how do you protect the vulnerable with the rest of the population carrying on as normal? is every interaction with someone over 55 meant to take place with the PPE of a front line worker in NYC or italy a couple months ago? (except in reverse, with the vulnerable person in PPE)?

No, older people and people who come into contact with them frequently take extra precautions (wear masks, avoid certain places, see others less, practice common sense). Lots of nursing homes and old age facilities have been fine because they've taken measures to protect their people. Anecdotally, we have a son who has asthma, so we take precautions every flu season for him. This isn't rocket surgery. It isn't like the Pangolin Flu is the first infectious disease we've ever dealt with and this isn't ebola.

[G__Deane]

You're suggesting to open it all wide open except long term care. You're suggesting that will save thousands of lives in a situation where all of society is wide open but these places because it worked in some places where they don't have society left wide open but they have locked down these homes.

What you're stating will be successful is different than what has been proven to be successful. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Again and again, you misquote people. How often have I had to say "where did I say this?" in response to a post by you putting words in my mouth? Where did I say leave it all wide open except long term care?

In fact I said "If they 100% locked long long term care homes (similar to what they eventually did anyways) and let the rest of businesses stay open (maybe even with the 2M restrictions)" and i would add including masks, hand sanitizing etc

Perhaps when you are going to put words in my mouth, I'll ask you to use the quote you are referring to so you can think twice in the future as to whether you're being accurate? I'm suggesting that if we had restrictions but not total work shutdown (they could have considered limiting group gatherings, closed crowded bars/restaurants/concerts/sporting events) and put total lockdowns on LTC homes, there would have been far fewer deaths.

[LJ2]

I don't think that they can legally force you to take a vaccination (thankfully we're not in communist China) but there are other likely effective methods they could deploy. They could make it so if you do not take the vaccination it causes inconveniences in your life.

As in a standardized immunization card recognized by all countries. Countries will just say you cannot enter because your papers are not in order. If they're really bold they could try to legislate something that gives employers the right in certain industries to mandate vaccination of COVID19 in order to work for that company but this likely won't fly with unions.

In any regard, this is why minority governments are the best configurations in democracy. Things move a little more slowly but more of the important discussions are had by all stakeholders.

If they can make it mandatory for your kids to have a flu shot to attend school, then they can make it mandatory that you take a vaccine for COVID. You don't spend billions pushing the economy towards certain turmoil in the name of saving lives and then risk those same lives all over over again.