Everything 2020 Offseason

[bertarapsfan]

This thread has gone too long without mentioning the best PG of our era who helped usher in this era, Steve Nash

i was writing my comment as this was posted lol

[The Great One]

Curry, Nash >>>> Kidd

The ONLY thing that Nash and Curry does better than Kidd is shooting. Passing, rebounding and defense all Kidd. Kidd is a 4x NBA All Defensive First Team.

[KeonClark]

The ONLY thing that Nash and Curry does better than Kidd is shooting. Passing, rebounding and defense all Kidd. Kidd is a 4x NBA All Defensive First Team.

Good thing the point of the sport is to put the ball in the basket. You basically described your favorite point guard, Kyle Lowry. Intagiblezzz babay

[bertarapsfan]

The all time PG ranking are really hard to nail down. I feel like its the one category where people can have it all over the place depending on what they value.
Magic is probably consensus number 1.
Then you got Nash,Kidd,Stockton, Thomas, Robinson, CP3, Steph. I could see anyone of those guys rounding out someones top 5 and not be mad at it

[The Great One]

Good thing the point of the sport is to put the ball in the basket. You basically described your favorite point guard, Kyle Lowry. Intagiblezzz babay

Are you serious? they're completely different players.

[KeonClark]

Are you serious? they're completely different players.

Tough, high IQ, not the greatest shooters but better with age, floor generals, good defense..kidd was obviously better, but a lot of comparables to draw from. Kidd was also never good enough to be the top dog on a contender which is why hes disqualified from GOAT. Remember when he had prime Vince in a weak east? They didnt figure that out. Kyle owes Kawhi, and kidd owes Dirk Nowitzki.

[Ebonhawke]

Nash and Jason Williams are, for me, the best PG distributors that I've watched

[bertarapsfan]

Nash and Jason Williams are, for me, the best PG distributors that I've watched

White Chocolate has one of the best highlights mixes of any player who wasn't an all time great.
I could watch his pass mix for the rest of my life

[planetmars]

Lebron is probably the best PG ever (over takes Magic but is close). Yet he's not a guard right so doesn't qualify?

From a pantheon perspective you have to have Stockton at #1 if you go pure guard. He was phenomenal. Just look at his BBR page. Nash changed the sport, but wasn't great defensively so has to come down a peg. He also never got to the finals which hurts him. Kidd was great but again wasn't able to do it in the finals until he was the #2 guy (but more like the #3 guy at that point depending on what you thought of Marion). Steph also changed the sport. But he's a pure scorer. Not the best defensively although better than Nash. Was also a part of some dominant teams and has a unanimous MVP in his trophy room. But wasn't really a point guard. More like an fricken awesome shooting guard. It's why Stockton is better despite not winning a single MVP or a chip.

So I have two lists (let's exclude guys over 6'5).

Favourite PG's of all time:

1. Lowry
2. Nash
3. Stockton
4. Paul
5. Payton


Best PG's all time:

1. Stockton
2. Steph
3. Zeke
4. Paul
5. Kidd

Hate to do it, but Kidd > Nash. Defensively has the edge. And defense is a critical component of being in the "best" category. Kidd had Carter but Nash had Amare and Marion. Nash is in the 40/50/90 club and has 2 MVP's but he's not a defender. He's so fun to watch and easily in my personal top 5. But not in the top 5 greatest ever.

Was tough deciding between Paul vs Kidd. I have Paul over just because he's a better overall scorer. His biggest issue was he can never stay healthy.

Also I passed on Oscar since I never saw him play. Not sure if he's like a Russ (ie, stat hound) or not. Also didn't hurt having Kareem on his team.

[bertarapsfan]

Lebron is probably the best PG ever (over takes Magic but is close). Yet he's not a guard right so doesn't qualify?

From a pantheon perspective you have to have Stockton at #1 if you go pure guard. He was phenomenal. Just look at his BBR page. Nash changed the sport, but wasn't great defensively so has to come down a peg. He also never got to the finals which hurts him. Kidd was great but again wasn't able to do it in the finals until he was the #2 guy (but more like the #3 guy at that point depending on what you thought of Marion). Steph also changed the sport. But he's a pure scorer. Not the best defensively although better than Nash. Was also a part of some dominant teams and has a unanimous MVP in his trophy room. But wasn't really a point guard. More like an fricken awesome shooting guard. It's why Stockton is better despite not winning a single MVP or a chip.

So I have two lists (let's exclude guys over 6'5).

Favourite PG's of all time:

1. Lowry
2. Nash
3. Stockton
4. Paul
5. Payton


Best PG's all time:

1. Stockton
2. Steph
3. Zeke
4. Paul
5. Kidd

Hate to do it, but Kidd > Nash. Defensively has the edge. And defense is a critical component of being in the "best" category. Kidd had Carter but Nash had Amare and Marion. Nash is in the 40/50/90 club and has 2 MVP's but he's not a defender. He's so fun to watch and easily in my personal top 5. But not in the top 5 greatest ever.

Was tough deciding between Paul vs Kidd. I have Paul over just because he's a better overall scorer. His biggest issue was he can never stay healthy.

Also I passed on Oscar since I never saw him play. Not sure if he's like a Russ (ie, stat hound) or not. Also didn't hurt having Kareem on his team.

Ya not mad at that list think if your not counting Magic i think Stockton and Steph would probably be on everyones top 5.
And to wrap this back to the orginal debate, I think if Rose stays healthly he is right their in the (Zeke,Paul, Kidd,Nash) Bracket. His best season individually matches up with any of those guys and might be the best outside of Nashs 1st MVP

[The Great One]

Tough, high IQ, not the greatest shooters but better with age, floor generals, good defense..kidd was obviously better, but a lot of comparables to draw from. Kidd was also never good enough to be the top dog on a contender which is why hes disqualified from GOAT. Remember when he had prime Vince in a weak east? They didnt figure that out. Kyle owes Kawhi, and kidd owes Dirk Nowitzki.

Kidd in his prime was good enough to be "the guy". He led the Nets to a back to back Finals appearance in the early 2000's, only losing to the dynasty Lakers team and dynasty Spurs team. Tough to beat those teams when Kenyon Martin is your second best player.

Also, Kidd imo was robbed of MVP in 2002. Duncan was a beast that year but Kidd completely turned the Nets franchise around.

[chris]

22 years. Bulls hired him right after Jordan retired in 98. Also the last year the Bulls were relevant. 22 friggin years.

that’s pretty misleading. they hired him as a scout, jerry krause was still at the helm until 2003. forman didn’t take over until 2009.

not that he's done a good job or anything, team has been a laughing stock especially recently. the boylen hiring was so immediately bad and keeping him last offseason after the whole team hated him was inexcusable.

[chris]

Lebron is probably the best PG ever (over takes Magic but is close). Yet he's not a guard right so doesn't qualify?

From a pantheon perspective you have to have Stockton at #1 if you go pure guard. He was phenomenal. Just look at his BBR page. Nash changed the sport, but wasn't great defensively so has to come down a peg. He also never got to the finals which hurts him. Kidd was great but again wasn't able to do it in the finals until he was the #2 guy (but more like the #3 guy at that point depending on what you thought of Marion). Steph also changed the sport. But he's a pure scorer. Not the best defensively although better than Nash. Was also a part of some dominant teams and has a unanimous MVP in his trophy room. But wasn't really a point guard. More like an fricken awesome shooting guard. It's why Stockton is better despite not winning a single MVP or a chip.

So I have two lists (let's exclude guys over 6'5).

Favourite PG's of all time:

1. Lowry
2. Nash
3. Stockton
4. Paul
5. Payton


Best PG's all time:

1. Stockton
2. Steph
3. Zeke
4. Paul
5. Kidd

Hate to do it, but Kidd > Nash. Defensively has the edge. And defense is a critical component of being in the "best" category. Kidd had Carter but Nash had Amare and Marion. Nash is in the 40/50/90 club and has 2 MVP's but he's not a defender. He's so fun to watch and easily in my personal top 5. But not in the top 5 greatest ever.

Was tough deciding between Paul vs Kidd. I have Paul over just because he's a better overall scorer. His biggest issue was he can never stay healthy.

Also I passed on Oscar since I never saw him play. Not sure if he's like a Russ (ie, stat hound) or not. Also didn't hurt having Kareem on his team.

as a pure point guard, sure I guess stockton was better. steph is a way better overall player than stockton ever dreamed of being though.

he also would have put up way bigger “point guard” numbers if he played for a coach that encouraged the kind of ball dominance and pick and roll reliance of lebron, harden, and westbrook’s heydays.

but kerr is a pop and jackson disciple who is allergic to that type of basketball, and would rather play a ball movement style because he believes it elevates the ceiling of team. which is why he rarely leaned on the curry-durant pick and roll when it could have been one of the most unstoppable actions in the history of the sport, pretty much only using it in emergencies. personally i tend to think he’s right, and believe it’s the main reason lebron lost several championships in which his team had equal or better talent (it’s hard to hit a shot if you haven’t touched the ball in several possession’s, even if it’s a wide open shot from the corner that is technically “the right basketball play.”)

most historians would have oscar second (or first) on your list, though i would put steph there probably for the same reasons you omitted oscar. though in full disclosure i would put steph a little below magic/bird and among the likes of duncan, kobe, hakeem, and shaq tier of recent superstars on an all-time though. and a fair bit higher than anyone else of his generation aside from lebron.

[Maury]

I think Rose was truly incredible. Most athletic player I've ever seen. Leagues ahead of Russ, because combined with out of this world explosion he had the uncanny ability to truly control himself and his movements in a way that guys like Russ can't. His ability to get to the rim and finish was transcendent, and he was a good enough passer, defender, and midrange scorer.

As for my top 5 PGs of all time, that's really tough. I'll exclude Magic too and we'll go with guys under 6'5".

1. Steph
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Kidd
5. Thomas

If CP had won a title, he would be first for me. It might seem like Blasphemy here to put the two youngest guys at the top, but Steph is probably the greatest offensive player of all time, and Chris Paul has the most well-rounded game of any point guard on that list. He's the second-best shooter, second-best defender, second-best passer, second-best scorer, and his intangibles and impact on winning are incredible. It's a shame he got hurt so many times in the playoffs because he deserves to be remembered for how great he was and still is.

I also chose to leave Oscar off the top 5 because I 1. haven't seen him play and 2. whether it's fair or not, Russ' triple-double chasing has soured me on the stat. I don't really care about it all that much anymore.

Here's my hot take for you guys to argue: Bill Walton is a top 5 center of all time.

1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Walton
5. Hakeem

[chris]

Here's my hot take for you guys to argue: Bill Walton is a top 5 center of all time.

1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Walton
5. Hakeem

that take is way too hot, you totally overcooked it. and left the best center of all time off your list:

1. bill russell
2. kareem
3. wilt
4. hakeem
5. shaq.

i'd have tim duncan ahead of bill walton too for the non-robinson years. and i might have robinson next?

walton had two truly great seasons. longevity matters.