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  • #31
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    The elite of past eras would still be great in this era .... just not (as) elite.
    Would Gretzky still challenge/win a scoring title today? Yup
    Could Ovie score in every decade? Sure.
    Would Jari Kurri or Mike Bossy or Rick Vaive score 50-60 today? Debatable or no.

    Would lebron be the force he has been in any era. Likely but also not a dominant in some ways since he'd finally be hard fouled non stop and no bogus phantom foul whistles to prop up his numbers.
    I would disagree with your claim. The elite of past eras, in this era, would have access to the training regimens, nutrition supplements, coaching, movement analysis, custom tailored workout routines, and in general, the sports science that wasn't even imagined in their own era.

    If you are elite in any era, you are genetically gifted athletically and also you have the internal drive to separate you from the small crowd at the absolute top of your field.

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    • #32
      Puffer wrote: View Post

      I would disagree with your claim. The elite of past eras, in this era, would have access to the training regimens, nutrition supplements, coaching, movement analysis, custom tailored workout routines, and in general, the sports science that wasn't even imagined in their own era.

      If you are elite in any era, you are genetically gifted athletically and also you have the internal drive to separate you from the small crowd at the absolute top of your field.
      When fans debate "would X historic elite player be as good today" it's generally in a scenario of dropping them into today's competition and would their game play the same/elite level.

      Not give Gretzky access to "to the training regimens, nutrition supplements, coaching, movement analysis, custom tailored workout routines, and in general, the sports science that wasn't even imagined in their own era."

      What kind of argument would that be lol? Of course he'd be elite today if he was born in the year 2000 but that's never the discussion. It's would the Gretzky of 1980 be as outstanding today?

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      • #33
        G__Deane wrote: View Post

        When fans debate "would X historic elite player be as good today" it's generally in a scenario of dropping them into today's competition and would their game play the same/elite level.

        Not give Gretzky access to "to the training regimens, nutrition supplements, coaching, movement analysis, custom tailored workout routines, and in general, the sports science that wasn't even imagined in their own era."

        What kind of argument would that be lol? Of course he'd be elite today if he was born in the year 2000 but that's never the discussion. It's would the Gretzky of 1980 be as outstanding today?
        Gretzky had almost a supernatural awareness on the ice. People are making a big deal about Ovechkin possibly catching his goal record but the thing is Gretzky was actually a facilitator and if you asked him what he thought he was as a player he'd probably liken himself to a quarterback. He scored a lot of goals, the most ever, but his real hard work was in putting his guys in better position to score and of course he was hitting them right on the tape almost ever damn time, sometimes on a no look. No one compares to him to this day. You put him in this era he would be the top dog.

        Edit: to be clear. Gretzky dropped into this era without the advantages of this era would still result in him being top dog. It was like he wasn't human, people forget the talent was off the charts like no other before or after.
        Last edited by Apollo; Tue May 5, 2020, 10:12 AM.

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        • #34
          I also believe that Michael Jordan dropped into this era without the advantages of this era would result in him being top dog still. The league is more talented today but the rule changes that help Michael would more than counteract the Durants and Giannis' of the league.

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          • #35
            In one of the Open Court segments Isiah said something interesting. He was saying if you drop Magic Johnson in this era he doesn't think he would be a point guard. He would be great but his argument was he would revolutionize the Forward position. He would be ultimate point center.
            Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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            • #36
              Listening to Charles and MJ .. MJ he says he and his team weren't ready for game 1 ( Lakers vs Suns ) and Charles regrets not having his team ready for game 1 against the Bulls . It made me think about all all those game 1 losses by the Raps in previous years .

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              • #37
                G__Deane wrote: View Post

                When fans debate "would X historic elite player be as good today" it's generally in a scenario of dropping them into today's competition and would their game play the same/elite level.

                Not give Gretzky access to "to the training regimens, nutrition supplements, coaching, movement analysis, custom tailored workout routines, and in general, the sports science that wasn't even imagined in their own era."

                What kind of argument would that be lol? Of course he'd be elite today if he was born in the year 2000 but that's never the discussion. It's would the Gretzky of 1980 be as outstanding today?
                why are you plopping 1980 gretzky into today's game? I'm sure he would probably use some or the new tools available if he could? Poor maurice Richard would get destroyed today, playing with his flat wood stick, and a couple leather shoes with blades strapped to the bottom. Hardly seems fair.
                It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                • #38
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  I also believe that Michael Jordan dropped into this era without the advantages of this era would result in him being top dog still. The league is more talented today but the rule changes that help Michael would more than counteract the Durants and Giannis' of the league.
                  The only thing that slowed MJ down was teams virtually body checking him at the rim. And he adapted to that. In the current era without handchecking and that kind of paint physicality, MJ would be impossible to handle. That said - defences can get more creative now with zones and doubles than in MJ's era so he'd definitely see a far wider range of looks thrown at him than he had to deal with in his prime, but I have no doubt he could deal with those looks.

                  Those arguments about physicality over time "these guys couldn't handle my era" are just pure conjecture. Players learn to play in their era, whatever its dynamics are. NBA players doing crack, smoking at halftime, and drinking in the locker room couldn't keep up with the track meet that is today's NBA. But if they were playing today instead of in the 80's, they wouldn't be doing crack, smoking at halftime, and drinking in the locker room. They'd be training 12 months of the year and eating healthy like everybody else. And if Lebron were playing in the 80's? He'd handle the physicality the same as Larry and Magic handled it. It all sort of comes out in the wash.

                  I think Gretzky's scoring would be down, same as almost anybody from the 80's. The NHL in the 80's was nuts, goaltending and defences were horrible (relatively speaking). It was still the era where guys ended up being career goalies because they were the least athletic kids on the team when they were 10. Then there's the whole pads thing. But Gretzky would be a GOAT in any era, he'd adapt.
                  Last edited by S.R.; Tue May 5, 2020, 01:56 PM.
                  "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                  • #39
                    Another thing, why is Toni Kukoc not in the hall of fame? compare his international career to guys like Vlade Divac and Drazen Petrovic who are both in the HOF. He's just as accomplished as those guys. Plus, Kukoc had a very good NBA career. He's a 3x NBA champion and actually one of the best players on that second 3-peat Bulls team.

                    Marc Gasol is another one. Should be in the HOF once he retired. Exceptional NBA career and International career.
                    Mamba Mentality

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                    • #40
                      Loved the last two episodes and being reminded of how massive MJ was globally. Arguably the most popular athlete on the planet, in any sport, in the early 90's. Just nuts.

                      Also knew he sold lots of Jordans (wore my brother's 7's in Jr High when I wasn't wearing my Reebok Pumps) but didn't really realize how Jordans changed the sneaker industry. They practically created it.

                      Interesting discussion on his avoidance of politics, too. I'd forgotten that. He's right you can't make everybody happy, someone's criticizing you no matter what you do. I can respect he decided to focus on basketball. Even in retirement, he's clearly a pretty private guy aside from basketball. Weird how people demand their idols be a certain thing for them. They are who they are. I'm totally fine with sports figures just being sports figures.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • #41
                        The Great One wrote: View Post
                        Another thing, why is Toni Kukoc not in the hall of fame? compare his international career to guys like Vlade Divac and Drazen Petrovic who are both in the HOF. He's just as accomplished as those guys. Plus, Kukoc had a very good NBA career. He's a 3x NBA champion and actually one of the best players on that second 3-peat Bulls team.

                        Marc Gasol is another one. Should be in the HOF once he retired. Exceptional NBA career and International career.
                        MJ & Pippen's initial dislike for Kukoc really framed the narrative for his whole NBA career.

                        Also was hilarious to hear Chuck mangle "Ku-cock" in 1992. Never change, Chuck.
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • #42
                          S.R. wrote: View Post

                          MJ & Pippen's initial dislike for Kukoc really framed the narrative for his whole NBA career.

                          Also was hilarious to hear Chuck mangle "Ku-cock" in 1992. Never change, Chuck.
                          I hope there's Kukoc episode(doubt it), he's one of the best players on that second 3-peat team. Dude deserves more respect. I mean, I heard Steve Kerr is going to have his own episode. Steve Kerr was nothinhg more than a 3pt specialist. The Matt Thomas of the Bulls.
                          Mamba Mentality

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                          • #43
                            S.R. wrote: View Post

                            The only thing that slowed MJ down was teams virtually body checking him at the rim. And he adapted to that. In the current era without handchecking and that kind of paint physicality, MJ would be impossible to handle. That said - defences can get more creative now with zones and doubles than in MJ's era so he'd definitely see a far wider range of looks thrown at him than he had to deal with in his prime, but I have no doubt he could deal with those looks.

                            Those arguments about physicality over time "these guys couldn't handle my era" are just pure conjecture. Players learn to play in their era, whatever its dynamics are. NBA players doing crack, smoking at halftime, and drinking in the locker room couldn't keep up with the track meet that is today's NBA. But if they were playing today instead of in the 80's, they wouldn't be doing crack, smoking at halftime, and drinking in the locker room. They'd be training 12 months of the year and eating healthy like everybody else. And if Lebron were playing in the 80's? He'd handle the physicality the same as Larry and Magic handled it. It all sort of comes out in the wash.
                            I agree with all this except that guys like Kawhi and PG likely would not be able to endure the physicality of the 90's. Yet here they are as the top two guys on the favorites to win it all. Kawhi would be a "what if" topic of discussion if he rolled through in the 90's.


                            S.R. wrote: View Post
                            I think Gretzky's scoring would be down, same as almost anybody from the 80's. The NHL in the 80's was nuts, goaltending and defences were horrible (relatively speaking). It was still the era where guys ended up being career goalies because they were the least athletic kids on the team when they were 10. Then there's the whole pads thing. But Gretzky would be a GOAT in any era, he'd adapt.
                            Don't forget that Gretzky played a full decade in the 90's when the goalies were bigger but their gear got gigantic.

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                            • #44
                              Haven't seen the 6th episode yet.. might tonight.. but the 5th was pretty good. Not as many details about the team as I originally thought they would have. A lot of the stuff I knew.. as I was a die hard fan back in the day. Wouldn't miss a Bulls game in the early 90's. The Portland series wasn't a cake walk. They blew them away in game 1.. but it was actually a 6 game series. Portland was a good team.

                              I really remember the 98 all star game too. The East was pretty brutal yet MJ still found a way to help his team win and get the MVP. I remember Kobe being pretty cocky and MJ putting him in his place a few times. Was probably the last full all-star game I saw live until the one in Toronto and then this season's.

                              I think they get into his gambling in episode 6 from what I'm hearing. I still don't quite get why that's even an issue. It's not like he bet on his sport like Pete Rose allegedly did back in the day (and even that is questionable). It's his money and he did something that was legal. Anything to tarnish someone I guess. MJ was far from perfect but is still the GOAT.
                              Last edited by planetmars; Tue May 5, 2020, 03:47 PM.

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                              • #45
                                S.R. wrote: View Post
                                I think Gretzky's scoring would be down, same as almost anybody from the 80's. The NHL in the 80's was nuts, goaltending and defences were horrible (relatively speaking). It was still the era where guys ended up being career goalies because they were the least athletic kids on the team when they were 10. Then there's the whole pads thing. But Gretzky would be a GOAT in any era, he'd adapt.
                                The one knock against Gretzky was that he was small. One hit and he'd be done. Not sure he'd be able to thrive so much in this era. Lot less hitting with some rule changes, but Crosby is much bigger and he's had issues his whole career. Wayne would have a huge bullseye on his head too. And he wouldn't have an enforcer like McSorley have his back.




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