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  • KeonClark
    replied
    The Great One wrote: View Post

    People always talk about "how effective would Michael Jordan’s midrange game be in today's game?" and then they would start talking about DeRozan. The GREATEST player in the game today - Kawhi Leonard - is a midrange scorer. I think Kawhi averaged 27ppg last year and 31ppg in the playoffs. Michael Jordan is like Kawhi on steroids lol.

    Late 90's version of Jordan would easily average 40+ppg in today's game. The early version of Jordan? that dude would destroy the league.
    No need to exaggerate to make your point. Yes, Jordan would receive probably like a 4 ppg bump playing in this era. Kawhi is also a generational player and would be top 5 in that era, right there or right behind Hakeem and Shaq. Just like Michael would likely still be the best now, but there is a lot of competition. Find me a 7 footer who could shoot off the bounce before KD existed.

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  • The Great One
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    For some of the young folks on here that never got to see MJ play in his prime:




    This is probably the best mix tape I've ever seen. He would be a nightmare in today's NBA.
    People always talk about "how effective would Michael Jordan’s midrange game be in today's game?" and then they would start talking about DeRozan. The GREATEST player in the game today - Kawhi Leonard - is a midrange scorer. I think Kawhi averaged 27ppg last year and 31ppg in the playoffs. Michael Jordan is like Kawhi on steroids lol.

    Late 90's version of Jordan would easily average 40+ppg in today's game. The early version of Jordan? that dude would destroy the league.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    For some of the young folks on here that never got to see MJ play in his prime:




    This is probably the best mix tape I've ever seen. He would be a nightmare in today's NBA.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied

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  • MixxAOR
    replied

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  • S.R.
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Funny how you never once mentioned shooting... that’s the biggest evolution of big man skill & talent that’s happened before our eyes. Name a 90s center who could shoot outside of 15 ft? And guys are “less” skilled now? Those are the facts I’m saying people are conveniently ignoring, as just one example. Even a guy like JV can hit a jumper and make his FTs as well as rebound like a mofo and play tough as nails.
    Bigs used to be stiffs who were told to stand near the basket, rebound, and play defence. Yeah they were tough and threw elbows, but not necessarily because "we were all tough back then!", honestly it was just as much because these guys couldn't do anything else on a basketball court. Really nothing. Couldn't dribble, couldn't hit a J, would turn the ball over if they held it too long. Growing up in past eras, coach would tear you a new one and bench you for even attempting a 3 in game. That is no exaggeration. Now guys are heavy into skill development, year round, at every position, from a young age. That's all different. The greats are always great but I think it's easy to argue massive skill development changes for average players and roster fillers over time.

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  • S.R.
    replied
    I love Kirk Goldsberry pieces: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...rowess-touched

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  • golden
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post

    Lol.. Pops was never that great. He was hustle, just like a lot of guys back in the 90's. But the key thing that Pops had was a lack of skill which is the point I'm making. Guys in the 90's had skill. Guys now have the athleticism but the skill is just not there. Giannis is a beast but the guy is awkward in the post. He is far from refined. There is a reason why Marc Gasol was able to shut down Embiid. Gasol is a guy who would have excelled in the 90's.

    You keep throwing out the word facts like it means anything. What's the proof that guys are better now? Your "eye test? Come one.. give me some stats/figures/data. You are the one preaching facts here that I'm obviously ignoring.
    • We have more elite international players then ever before. I agree.
    • We have less skilled players now then in the 90s. I've stated my position by the stating that more of the guys in the 90's spent more time in college honing their skills before entering the NBA. You have not given me a reason why the guys now are more skilled or just "better".
    • I stated that the guys in the top tier of the NBA (ie, the difference makers) back in the 90's are just as good as the guys now.. and probably even better in some cases (like Shaq over Giannis or Hakeem over Embiid).
    • How are big men more talented now then before? Under what basis? I mean 35 year old Marc Gasol basically shut down Embiid last year. Vucevic was a complete gong show. And most of the centers in the 90's play just like Gasol does. Is it that that they can shoot 3 pointers? Is that what makes someone more talented? Then MJ was a better shooter than Lebron. He was a far better FT shooter. League average 3pt shooter for the time (Lebron is below average compared to his peers). He was also a better mid range shooter. Does Lebron even shoot mid range jumpers? If shooting is what makes guys more talented then MJ was better than Lebron and the case can be closed

    I'm not trying to put MJ on a pedestal. I agree that Bill was a dominant winner.. but I also pointed out that it was an 8-10 man league that was mainly white. He beat the best that was playing sure, but there were a lot more guys (especially black guys) that he didn't get to play against due to racism, etc. So that's why I hold MJ to a better standard since he played against mainly black athletes, and still faced around 27-28 teams a year. Ie, similar to Lebron.
    Funny how you never once mentioned shooting... that’s the biggest evolution of big man skill & talent that’s happened before our eyes. Name a 90s center who could shoot outside of 15 ft? And guys are “less” skilled now? Those are the facts I’m saying people are conveniently ignoring, as just one example. Even a guy like JV can hit a jumper and make his FTs as well as rebound like a mofo and play tough as nails.

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  • Apollo
    replied
    A really good example of the impact in changing eras is Brook Lopez. His original style of play was tremendously valuable when entering the league but then things changed quickly after he arrived and he eventually had to totally reinvent himself to stay relevant in the league. He went from low post to 3D in order to stay relevant. He had the intelligence and presence of mind to see it and to change. He had the talent all along but it was focused in different areas to suit the times.

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  • Apollo
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Embiid could play in the 90's. He's like Hakeem with range, and that changes the whole equation. Just replace Greg Ostertag with Embiid and MJ's legacy looks a lot different today. Again, it goes back to much larger global talent pool today, but not exponentially more NBA roster spots today = more competition. Of that limited talent pool of Euros, for example, Jordan even had the benefit of having one of the best in the league (Kukoc) on his own team (Thanks, Krause).
    Dude, Embiid can't even stay healthy just running up and down the court. What happens when the rough stuff starts flying and it's not a foul?

    Ostertag is just one guy. A tough antagonizing son of a bitch kind of guy. There were plenty of big men in the league who were skilled, it's just that there was value in having enforcers like Ostertag back then. In fact you needed one. The Bulls had them. They didn't dilute the game like you're making it out to be. Shooters are more valued now but a lot of those guys can't guard. A lot of big men have no low post moves now, you weren't getting big minutes in the 90's without low post move or the ability to guard guys on the post up. Toni Kukoc was a highly talented big man, a guy who would thrive in today's game but he was reduced to a Bulls role player almost his entire career because the game was different back then.

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  • S.R.
    replied
    Hakeem on the evolution of the skilled big man: https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en...men-small-ball

    I find it really refreshing when players don't just ego-trip the era comparisons.

    Some interesting thoughts on how players are evolving in terms of height, agility, and role: https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

    As much as guys like to talk about how physical the NBA used to be (and rightly so), at the same time there's more running up and down the floor and more energy exerted defensively than ever before: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/s...a-scoring.html

    I can't find some of the running/defensive articles I've read, but there are objective stats to support the idea that NBA players are basically more athletic and playing harder over 48 minutes than they ever have before. I mean just think about a Tractor Traylor playing today - pratctically unimaginable. Each team used to have 1 or 2 seven foot stiffs who sucked at basketball but were just big. Those players don't exist on rosters anymore. If you can't play - or aren't 19-25 years old with the potential to develop basketball skills - you don't have a roster spot. I don't think it's hard to argue that overall the league is more skilled and the game is played at a higher level by more guys within the league. Plenty of pro sports GOATs who aren't sensitive about era egos have said as much.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    C'mon, man. Just look at the talent evolution of big men alone. They are exponentially more talented than they used to be - Americans and non-Americans. I remember getting excited about the potential of Pops Mensah Bonsu. People are conveniently starting to ignore facts.... for what? Just to put the legacy of Jordan completely out of reach by deliberately denigrating all Eras and players before and after him, while not holding MJ to the same standard? That's just turning a blind eye to facts.
    Lol.. Pops was never that great. He was hustle, just like a lot of guys back in the 90's. But the key thing that Pops had was a lack of skill which is the point I'm making. Guys in the 90's had skill. Guys now have the athleticism but the skill is just not there. Giannis is a beast but the guy is awkward in the post. He is far from refined. There is a reason why Marc Gasol was able to shut down Embiid. Gasol is a guy who would have excelled in the 90's.

    You keep throwing out the word facts like it means anything. What's the proof that guys are better now? Your "eye test? Come one.. give me some stats/figures/data. You are the one preaching facts here that I'm obviously ignoring.
    • We have more elite international players then ever before. I agree.
    • We have less skilled players now then in the 90s. I've stated my position by the stating that more of the guys in the 90's spent more time in college honing their skills before entering the NBA. You have not given me a reason why the guys now are more skilled or just "better".
    • I stated that the guys in the top tier of the NBA (ie, the difference makers) back in the 90's are just as good as the guys now.. and probably even better in some cases (like Shaq over Giannis or Hakeem over Embiid).
    • How are big men more talented now then before? Under what basis? I mean 35 year old Marc Gasol basically shut down Embiid last year. Vucevic was a complete gong show. And most of the centers in the 90's play just like Gasol does. Is it that that they can shoot 3 pointers? Is that what makes someone more talented? Then MJ was a better shooter than Lebron. He was a far better FT shooter. League average 3pt shooter for the time (Lebron is below average compared to his peers). He was also a better mid range shooter. Does Lebron even shoot mid range jumpers? If shooting is what makes guys more talented then MJ was better than Lebron and the case can be closed

    I'm not trying to put MJ on a pedestal. I agree that Bill was a dominant winner.. but I also pointed out that it was an 8-10 man league that was mainly white. He beat the best that was playing sure, but there were a lot more guys (especially black guys) that he didn't get to play against due to racism, etc. So that's why I hold MJ to a better standard since he played against mainly black athletes, and still faced around 27-28 teams a year. Ie, similar to Lebron.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post

    Big guys are more finesse now, they'd get eaten alive back in the 90's. Guys in the 90's honed their games to the rules of the 90's and what would get them paid then. They weren't training back then to get your approval 25 years later. A lot of the guys you mention would not be able to run their game effectively against 90's teams with 90's rules, they would need to change.
    Embiid could play in the 90's. He's like Hakeem with range, and that changes the whole equation. Just replace Greg Ostertag with Embiid and MJ's legacy looks a lot different today. Again, it goes back to much larger global talent pool today, but not exponentially more NBA roster spots today = more competition. Of that limited talent pool of Euros, for example, Jordan even had the benefit of having one of the best in the league (Kukoc) on his own team (Thanks, Krause).

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post

    I mean he won the first Chip with David Robinson. Manu and Tony are both likely going to the hall of fame. They had Michael Finkey as well. Later in his career he got Kawhi Leonard. Plus the Spurs were generally well run and as a result they always had a deeply talented team of guys who fit the system well. Duncan never won a championship where he carried them all by himself to the finish line. Shaq played with Kobe. Shaq played with Wade but those teams weren't deep like the Spurs were all those years.
    Yeah. Manu is criminally underrated. His advanced stats are off the charts, and his numbers are great on both sides of the ball. That's even before you bring "clutch-ness" into the discussion.

    He's being punished because he was unselfish and did what Pop wanted to and came off the bench for most of his career to balance the rotation. If Manu was an American player, he probably would have left the Spurs to go somewhere and be "the Man" ... ala T-Mac.

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  • Apollo
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    C'mon, man. Just look at the talent evolution of big men alone. They are exponentially more talented than they used to be - Americans and non-Americans. I remember getting excited about the potential of Pops Mensah Bonsu. People are conveniently starting to ignore facts.... for what? Just to put the legacy of Jordan completely out of reach by deliberately denigrating all Eras and players before and after him, while not holding MJ to the same standard? That's just turning a blind eye to facts.
    Big guys are more finesse now, they'd get eaten alive back in the 90's. Guys in the 90's honed their games to the rules of the 90's and what would get them paid then. They weren't training back then to get your approval 25 years later. A lot of the guys you mention would not be able to run their game effectively against 90's teams with 90's rules, they would need to change.

    Leave a comment:

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