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The Last Dance

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  • #76
    The Great One wrote: View Post
    Ep. 7 and 8 were the best yet. The emotion in Jordan's voice and the tears in his eyes as he talked about his competitive fire at the end of episode 7 proved how crazy he is. Holy shit.
    That's what really made me rethink him checking out after each three-peat. The documentary does a really good job showing how intense he was - both in the day to day and with his basketball career overall, the emotional roller coaster of his personal life, the organizational drama, and the intensity of his celebrity status and the media attention. It was all just nuts. Guy needed to step back. Imagine trying to live a life in the middle of all that while also functioning with that competitive intensity. Just not sustainable over 12-15 years without interruption.
    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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    • #77
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      I think he's not good as an owner because it's an entirely different skill set required to identify talent, understand personalities and fit that to the system you want to run.

      As a player he didn't have much input on who was in the trenches with him until they arrived for practice. He would force out those who couldn't hack the pressure cooker he built. Totally different world being on the court and in the head office. I bet you he secretly has much more respect for Jerry now than he did back then.
      Do franchise guys ever make good coaches, owners, or managers? Lebron might, but otherwise it's often role players who transition to management positions. The role players are the ones who really have to understand team, how everything fits together, how to fit in as a player, how to get the most out of (relatively) limited talent, etc. All that stuff translates well to coaching & management.

      You also see a lot of point guards transition into coaches and managers, all of the above is even more true for them than, say, for a 7 footer who spent his career standing near the rim and rebounding.
      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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      • #78
        S.R. wrote: View Post

        Do franchise guys ever make good coaches, owners, or managers? Lebron might, but otherwise it's often role players who transition to management positions. The role players are the ones who really have to understand team, how everything fits together, how to fit in as a player, how to get the most out of (relatively) limited talent, etc. All that stuff translates well to coaching & management.

        You also see a lot of point guards transition into coaches and managers, all of the above is even more true for them than, say, for a 7 footer who spent his career standing near the rim and rebounding.
        Part of it might be situational. For instance, Ty Lue had a really good relationship with Bron and when he turned coach he had great results... Because he had the best player on earth, knew him well and built everything around him from the ground up. Most people aren't getting this kind of opportunity.

        However, Jerry Sloan is an obvious example of a player turned coach finding great results. Steve Kerr is another. Doc Rivers. Lenny Wilkens. Pat Riley. George Karl. Phil Jackson. There are a bunch. I can't think of anyone close to MJ's talents making it work though. Zeke did alright but he never had many chances with GOOD rosters; it's so long ago now that its foggy to me though, maybe I'm forgetting. Larry Byrd led the Pacers to the ECF, not bad?!

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        • #79
          Another thing, if we think back to MJ's forgettable days with the Wiz we see a guy who got frustrated by not being able to make a difference in the head office so much so that he unretired again and played with the team. Made Kwame Brown cry and really accomplished fuck all. I doubt we see any fast forwards to Jordan padding stats at the expense of the team at age 38 in this docuseries.

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          • #80
            MJ's issue is that he tends not to trust people outside of his little circle.. or he may have burnt too many bridges outside of that circle. I mean the guy that picked him from the airport in Chicago way back when is still his personal driver. So as an owner you're trying to bring in a management staff that you trust. And that can backfire if the circle of friends you trust aren't very good at their jobs. And you also don't want to see a meddling owner otherwise that usually ends up becoming toxic (like in New York or Sacramento for example). MJ might be a bit too hands on as well which is also doesn't help matters.

            MJ should really be getting an outside guy that can succeed. There are a lot of smart basketball minds out there that can put a team together. MJ has the connections to find someone.. instead he settled on a guy like Kupchak who was well beyond his years at the time of his hiring (he was the same guy that gave those big money deals to Mozgov and Deng) and was dragging the Lakers through the mud before Jeanie Buss took command of the team.

            MJ needs to emulate other successful owners. And in a nutshell it is to hire the right people, and step away from the team. He's just not wired that way I guess which is why Charlotte is usually a mess.

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            • #81
              G__Deane wrote: View Post

              It's also why he'd make a terrible coach and likely owner. Many truly elite players can't understand why others don't have the same talent and drive they did.
              I think he was talking about work ethic and intensity in practice. Anybody is capable of working hard, if they want to.
              It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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              • #82
                KeonClark wrote: View Post

                I think he was talking about work ethic and intensity in practice. Anybody is capable of working hard, if they want to.
                yeah I don't think Michael was going to be mad at Kerr for not dunking on Ewing lol
                Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                • #83
                  planetmars wrote: View Post
                  MJ's issue is that he tends not to trust people outside of his little circle.. or he may have burnt too many bridges outside of that circle. I mean the guy that picked him from the airport in Chicago way back when is still his personal driver. So as an owner you're trying to bring in a management staff that you trust. And that can backfire if the circle of friends you trust aren't very good at their jobs. And you also don't want to see a meddling owner otherwise that usually ends up becoming toxic (like in New York or Sacramento for example). MJ might be a bit too hands on as well which is also doesn't help matters.

                  MJ should really be getting an outside guy that can succeed. There are a lot of smart basketball minds out there that can put a team together. MJ has the connections to find someone.. instead he settled on a guy like Kupchak who was well beyond his years at the time of his hiring (he was the same guy that gave those big money deals to Mozgov and Deng) and was dragging the Lakers through the mud before Jeanie Buss took command of the team.

                  MJ needs to emulate other successful owners. And in a nutshell it is to hire the right people, and step away from the team. He's just not wired that way I guess which is why Charlotte is usually a mess.
                  He can be very hands and be successful. He needs to have the ability to perform. Cuban does, MJ... Seemingly does not.

                  Many people have called him out on his poor track record in team management but there's probably not an episode in this docuseries where one of his buddies is all like "ooooh damn, he shouldn't have said that because MJ is totally not gonna fuck up this years draft and free agency now".

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                  • #84
                    Apollo wrote: View Post

                    He can be very hands and be successful. He needs to have the ability to perform. Cuban does, MJ... Seemingly does not.

                    Many people have called him out on his poor track record in team management but there's probably not an episode in this docuseries where one of his buddies is all like "ooooh damn, he shouldn't have said that because MJ is totally not gonna fuck up this years draft and free agency now".
                    He's become a bit of a joke as an owner.. and it's a shame. But yeah MJ can get nasty. It's why he and Barkley don't talk anymore. Charles has been very vocal as to why their friendship ended and it was because Charles once commented on MJ's tenure as an owner in Charlotte negatively. MJ needs some guys that are critical around him.. hiring "yes men" will never get the job done.

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                    • #85
                      S.R. wrote: View Post

                      Do franchise guys ever make good coaches, owners, or managers? Lebron might
                      lol lebron will/would make the worst coach/manager in the history of the game. Owner, who knows but I bet he'd be resentful as crap at the money some of the middling talent in this league makes

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                      • #86
                        I may be in the minority here as a hockey guy but I can't believe NBA players didn't try to cripple this narcissistic self centred jackass every chance they got to play him.

                        This may be one of the fundamental difference between hockey players who would have seen this guy is a world class asshole within the league and to confirm it Jordan fucked over his own guys on his team because he could.

                        He is the Ty Cobb of basketball.

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                        • #87
                          Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                          I may be in the minority here as a hockey guy but I can't believe NBA players didn't try to cripple this narcissistic self centred jackass every chance they got to play him.

                          This may be one of the fundamental difference between hockey players who would have seen this guy is a world class asshole within the league and to confirm it Jordan fucked over his own guys on his team because he could.

                          He is the Ty Cobb of basketball.
                          Jordan or his people are marketing and branding genius(es). He is held up by some as some sort of sports Messiah. He's is one of the all time greats across all sports but I don't understand the need to deify him. The man was far from perfect off the court and all that stuff didn't serve some greater purpose. It was flaws.

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                          • #88
                            Apollo wrote: View Post

                            Jordan or his people are marketing and branding genius(es). He is held up by some as some sort of sports Messiah. He's is one of the all time greats across all sports but I don't understand the need to deify him. The man was far from perfect off the court and all that stuff didn't serve some greater purpose. It was flaws.
                            Jordan is an asshole.
                            He would get run and run hard and cheap every game. Head first if you could. Not an erg of regret either.
                            Think Steve Downey, Brayden Shenn, Matt Cooke.Sean Avery or Matthew Barnaby. Every game they had to be aware they would pay the price for being a cheap shot dick.

                            Not the same class of athlete as Jordan but these c*nts are every bit the fucking asshole he was and still is.

                            - Wilson pays a call on SHenn for cheap shotting his teammate a game earlier.

                            - Chara pays a visit to Downey after he tries to fight a Euro who doesn't and had a broken hand. At the 1:15 mark you can see the team watch as Chara informs him of his asshole status.

                            All world surrender monkey Reggie Miller talks up Jordan. Says more about Miller than Jordan.

                            Agree.... the need to deify Jordan is a puzzling one.

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                            • #89
                              Apollo wrote: View Post

                              Jordan or his people are marketing and branding genius(es). He is held up by some as some sort of sports Messiah. He's is one of the all time greats across all sports but I don't understand the need to deify him. The man was far from perfect off the court and all that stuff didn't serve some greater purpose. It was flaws.
                              Probably because it distracts from the fact that MJ has been a total failure as an owner / executive and he can’t handle that. So, he allows the Last Dance to come out and put him on that decades old pedestal again, so people won’t talk about signing Terry Rozier for $18M per year.

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                              • #90
                                Demographic Shift wrote: View Post

                                Jordan is an asshole.
                                He would get run and run hard and cheap every game. Head first if you could. Not an erg of regret either.
                                Think Steve Downey, Brayden Shenn, Matt Cooke.Sean Avery or Matthew Barnaby. Every game they had to be aware they would pay the price for being a cheap shot dick.

                                Not the same class of athlete as Jordan but these c*nts are every bit the fucking asshole he was and still is.

                                - Wilson pays a call on SHenn for cheap shotting his teammate a game earlier.

                                - Chara pays a visit to Downey after he tries to fight a Euro who doesn't and had a broken hand. At the 1:15 mark you can see the team watch as Chara informs him of his asshole status.

                                All world surrender monkey Reggie Miller talks up Jordan. Says more about Miller than Jordan.

                                Agree.... the need to deify Jordan is a puzzling one.
                                I like this one. Putz Evander Kane goes after a little guy and Chara tells him that's a no go. He'd been battling Chara all night.
                                Then Kane tries to blindside Zdeno and dummy him when he's on the ice....than Chara stood up again....

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52kCVZpH2E

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