The Last Dance

[golden]

Are you talking now with today's rule or back then when Jordan played? This isn't an easy question to answer, it is not a no brainer because the game is very different today. You have the same goal: score more than the other guy but... How you do that is different. How you can stop it is different. Different rules work for different styles of play and different strengths. There are guys playing today and putting up big numbers who wouldn't back in Jordan's day. There are guys from back then who put up big numbers who wouldn't today. This is what I'm saying, its not an apples to apples comparison. KD got the MVP and then got a Chip by riding someone else's coattails (yeah he did, he jumped to a championship team who whooped his ass). But how would that go if he was getting slammed to the ground or shoved, grabbed, poked, etc. every play or every other play? Is he going to preserver? Is that frail looking frame gonna hold up with Rodman doing a mid court take down? Who knows. Apples and oranges. If I could put my money down though I'd bet on KD not performing as well back then unless he hit the gym hardcore and added a lot of weight and played a little differently.

Are there actually people who think that Jordan didn't receive preferable treatment from the refs in his era? lol. David Stern knew that Jordan was the NBA's meal ticket and did everything in his power to tilt the playing field towards MJ. Stern and MJ basically laid out the 'separate rules for NBA poster boys' blueprint, which was subsequently applied to: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, KD & Curry, etc...

And people somehow pretend that refs calling ticky-tack fouls started started less than 10 years ago. That's a lot more myth than fact. Have a look at this:

Could Today's Stars Survive the Old School NBA?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPBz3_Jgd-U

[G__Deane]

But is it Lebron’s fault that the Cavs couldn’t get him his Pippen and Phil Jackson in his first go around? Might have a few more chips if he had a better sidekick than Mo Williams, lol, for example.

MJ still hates Krause, but most GMs actually fail at surrounding the superstar with a championship roster and coach that complements their talent.

I'm more old school where I believe the players job is to play and play to the best of their abilities. That means playing with the best players that the GM is able to bring in (that's his job).

The problem starts when the player decides he'd make a better GM than the GM and all you have to do is collude with other players to team up in FA or even better, convince another elite player to suck out of his valid contract and screw the fans over.

Even though I'm not a lebron fan, I have a touch more respect for his ring from Cleveland in 2016 (Kyrie) than I do the garbage in Miami (Wade, Bosh where lebron took a ton less than market value to cheat the system) and potentially in LA (Davis). I feel a bit the same way about Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Garnett in Boston but at least they traded for them.

So, no it's not lebron's fault that the Cavs couldn’t get him his Pippen and Phil Jackson in his first go around. Suck it up buttercup ....

[Apollo]

How many defensive player of the years did LeBron win? Jordan was the best in the business at boths sides. Clutch at both sides.

[planetmars]

There are two things that I hear often in the MJ vs Lebron debate.

The first was that MJ had Scottie. The second was that MJ never had to face a team like the Warriors.


Scottie Pippen wasn't really a superstar. Definitely not early on. Scottie Pippen was a really elite defender. Arguably the best ever. But he was pretty meh offensively for the most part. He was wildly inefficient. Pretty bad free throw shooter. Terrible 3pt shooter, yet took a lot of shots. He was really good in transition after making a stop and was great with the ball. A better defending Siakam I guess. But Siakam is no superstar yet Scottie is always labeled as one. I would definitely rank Wade ahead of Scottie in an all-time list.

Also Scottie only played in 7 all-star games in his career. 2 without Jordan. The only other all-star that MJ played with was BJ Armstrong (lol). How many did Lebron get to play with? Also Pippen was not an all-star in 91.. the first year they won it.

I liked watching Pippen. But he also boned the team several times. The infamous "migraine" game. The decision to not suite up because of his contract (one that he signed). The decision to not play when the final shot was to go to Kukoc. He ran to a stacked team of his own in Houston and they couldn't get really far in the playoffs. I think he gets too much credit for being part of those 6 titles.. when really it was the MJ show, and Scottie was just a part of the ride. Like Kyrie in Cleveland or Bosh in Miami. He's better than those two but the rings and MJ's side kick is what really separates him from all other stars.


With regards to the Warriors.. Lebron only played them twice with KD. Even if we don't include those losses he still has a losing record of 3-4. And really could have been 2-5 if not for Kawhi's miss free throw and Pops turning into Dwayne Casey. Or 1-6 if not for Kyrie's miracle 3 or Green's nut kick/suspension.

At the end of the day MJ was the reason the Bulls were a dynasty. Lebron never really played on one. And when things don't look good for him or his team he bailed. Did it three times. After winning 61 times in Cleveland and losing in the 2nd round to the Celtics. Then 54 times in Miami losing in the finals in 5 games to the Spurs. And then 50 times in Cleveland again after getting swept by the Warriors. I'm surprised he didn't leave LA after not even making the playoffs last year. MJ kept losing to the Pistons, but never left. He only packed it up after he won.


This guy here put a video together. He has some bias towards MJ for sure.. but I think he did a really good job outlining why MJ is the GOAT:

[Apollo]

And for the record, I think Jordan's Bulls teams (second three-peat) is the best team ever. Runner up might be Shaq & Kobe. Again, rules are important but those two teams are the most impressive teams I've seen in my life.

[Apollo]

Compared to the KD Warriors? MVPs + All-NBA players at their absolute peaks. Which team was that?

Are you talking now with today's rule or back then when Jordan played? This isn't an easy question to answer, it is not a no brainer because the game is very different today. You have the same goal: score more than the other guy but... How you do that is different. How you can stop it is different. Different rules work for different styles of play and different strengths. There are guys playing today and putting up big numbers who wouldn't back in Jordan's day. There are guys from back then who put up big numbers who wouldn't today. This is what I'm saying, its not an apples to apples comparison. KD got the MVP and then got a Chip by riding someone else's coattails (yeah he did, he jumped to a championship team who whooped his ass). But how would that go if he was getting slammed to the ground or shoved, grabbed, poked, etc. every play or every other play? Is he going to preserver? Is that frail looking frame gonna hold up with Rodman doing a mid court take down? Who knows. Apples and oranges. If I could put my money down though I'd bet on KD not performing as well back then unless he hit the gym hardcore and added a lot of weight and played a little differently.

[golden]

Jordan beat stacked teams. Teams that didn't have all these soft rules that the current era benefits from. Its tough to hit all those threes when you're getting held, slapped and knocked to the ground. Contrary to what Californian basketball fans say on TV, the current era happened thanks to the head office and not Steph Curry.

Compared to the KD Warriors? MVPs + All-NBA players at their absolute peaks. Which team was that?

[Apollo]

Jordan beat stacked teams. Teams that didn't have all these soft rules that the current era benefits from. Its tough to hit all those threes when you're getting held, slapped and knocked to the ground. Contrary to what Californian basketball fans say on TV, the current era happened thanks to the head office and not Steph Curry.

[golden]

LeBron has grown on me. I think it's time for people to appreciate LeBron's greatness. You'll never see another player like him. I think he's EASILY the second greatest player of all time. I don't think he can catch Michael though. It doesn't matter if he ends up passing Kareem in the all time scoring list. I know it's not all his fault but he's 3-6 in the Finals; Jordan is 6-0. That alone ends the MJ/LeBron debate.

Jordan played in the Pre-SuperFriends Era, so I discount those 6 chips. MJ never had to face anything close to what Lebron had to go through vs. the Warriors, for example:

KD: best all-around scorer in the game. perennial MVP
Steph: best shooter of all time. ridiculous ball-handler. perennial MVP
Klay: 2nd best shooter of all-time. perennial all-defense team
Draymond: perennial DPOY.
Iggy: 6th man candidate. Starter on most teams.

All of the above, in their primes, plus a forward thinking coach, Kerr, who is a winner (MJ should know). Show me a team that MJ beat that even comes close to holding the jockstraps of that Warriors team.

[Apollo]

If he's easily second greatest then I'd like to hear your definition of "great".

[The Great One]

Is MJ really better than LeBron tho?

When it's all said and done LBJ will go down as the NBA's leading scorer(pretty impressive for a guy who's not known as a scorer), probably finish top 5 all time in assists, top 10 in rebounds.....he'll probably win 1 or 2 more championships.....

I'm just sayin....

LeBron has grown on me. I think it's time for people to appreciate LeBron's greatness. You'll never see another player like him. I think he's EASILY the second greatest player of all time. I don't think he can catch Michael though. It doesn't matter if he ends up passing Kareem in the all time scoring list. I know it's not all his fault but he's 3-6 in the Finals; Jordan is 6-0. That alone ends the MJ/LeBron debate.

[The Great One]

Jordan is an asshole.
He would get run and run hard and cheap every game. Head first if you could. Not an erg of regret either.
Think Steve Downey, Brayden Shenn, Matt Cooke.Sean Avery or Matthew Barnaby. Every game they had to be aware they would pay the price for being a cheap shot dick.

Not the same class of athlete as Jordan but these c*nts are every bit the fucking asshole he was and still is.

- Wilson pays a call on SHenn for cheap shotting his teammate a game earlier.

- Chara pays a visit to Downey after he tries to fight a Euro who doesn't and had a broken hand. At the 1:15 mark you can see the team watch as Chara informs him of his asshole status.

All world surrender monkey Reggie Miller talks up Jordan. Says more about Miller than Jordan.

Agree.... the need to deify Jordan is a puzzling one.

What makes Jordan an asshole? his leadership style? His leadership style isn't for everyone's but I'd play alongside him no question. It's CLEAR what his motive is, he just wants to win. He was leading grown men NOT children. And in the end they won championships together. So it worked. Seems like you're more worried about hurting other people's feelings.

Bold part - run him over, cheapshot, head first? really? ok Don Cherry. You sound more like an asshole than Jordan to me.

Speaking of Don Cherry, one of the best thing CBC did this year was firing that old senile Don Cherry. Good lord.

[golden]

Or he might not win another one at all. And he had to collude with another superstar to get out of a valid contract, screw their fans and join him in LA.

lebron sucks man ....

But is it Lebron’s fault that the Cavs couldn’t get him his Pippen and Phil Jackson in his first go around? Might have a few more chips if he had a better sidekick than Mo Williams, lol, for example.

MJ still hates Krause, but most GMs actually fail at surrounding the superstar with a championship roster and coach that complements their talent.

[G__Deane]

Is MJ really better than LeBron tho?

When it's all said and done LBJ will go down as the NBA's leading scorer(pretty impressive for a guy who's not known as a scorer), probably finish top 5 all time in assists, top 10 in rebounds.....he'll probably win 1 or 2 more championships.....

I'm just sayin....

Or he might not win another one at all. And he had to collude with another superstar to get out of a valid contract, screw their fans and join him in LA.

lebron sucks man ....

[MixxAOR]

but only one can be a meme goat