Who is the greatest basketball player of all-time?

[G__Deane]

Cow manure. Much softer.

That makes it even more impressive
Pussies today need landing mats

[golden]

add in the leadership ability, intangibles, and the MJ-like will/competitiveness and he's number 2 all time no matter what era he played in.

But if you use MJ, Magic and Kobe’s own words, then Russell is #1 because it’s all about championships.

[G__Deane]

But if you use MJ, Magic and Kobe’s own words, then Russell is #1 because it’s all about championships.

Yeah but Sam Jones is number 2, all on Russell's coat tails ....

[chris]

But if you use MJ, Magic and Kobe’s own words, then Russell is #1 because it’s all about championships.

i've never heard any of them say that, personally. MJ especially has gone out of his way to not comment on his GOAT status, saying it's impossible to compare players across eras. (unlike lebron, who has loudly and publicly declared himself the GOAT).

i can't put russell ahead of MJ for all the reasons people keep him out of their top five or whatever (which is preposterous) - there were 8 to 14 teams in the league, he didn't dominate statistically, etc. but he was an olympic caliber athlete that won 11 championships in his 13 years, as player coach for two of them. that's ludicrous. in a loaded generation before it was watered down by expansion and the ABA. and he owned wilt, who was was the most gifted and dominant player of the era (maybe of all time). he had the same tenacity and competitiveness and refusal to lose that MJ did, by all accounts.

but jordan hit his prime and never lost again in a much more advanced era with 30 teams, which is obviously much harder to do*. and dominated both ends of the floor. came through an unfathomable amount of times. made his teammates better. etc. his GOAT status is indisputable in my opinion and anyone that thinks otherwise was either not alive or is just hating. (i know you've been vocally in the latter camp).

*even if i'd agree that the league was more watered down during his time than russell's, or lebron's. that cuts both ways. jordan's third or fourth option was like horace grant and bj armstrong, or toni kukoc and steve kerr. true role players vs the stars you see of recent times like chris bosh bosh and ray allen, or klay thompson/draymond/iguodala.

here's my top ten for the record, in tiers:

Tier 1

1. MJ - the pole should be to vote for second place

Tier 2
2. bill russell (for reasons above - probably should be in his own tier 2)
3. kareem (massive list of accomplishments, was great for a long time. his best decade was the leagues worst and he only got one championship out of it)

Tier 3
4. lebron
5. wilt
these two are in the same tier to me. possessed the biggest advantages in terms of blending physical gifts with natural talent the league's probably ever seen. both egomaniacs, one obsessed with statistical dominance and the other obsessed with manufacturing/curating his legacy. both have underachieved relative to their talent levels in their eras. both played alongside shitloads of talent that absolutely should have been enough to win more than they have/did, despite what their supporters will tell you. edge goes to lebron for the extra championship and longevity, even if i think his last championship was bogus.

Tier 4
6. magic
7. larry
larry had the higher peak and hit it earlier in his career (he was much older despite them coming into the league at the same time), magic has better overall resume

Tier 5
8. shaq
9. duncan
10. kobe
essentially a three way tie. i can't really separate them. peak shaq was a force unlike i've ever seen.

[G__Deane]

30 for 30, the Dennis Rodman story is on TSN tonight, pretty cool

[golden]

i've never heard any of them say that, personally. MJ especially has gone out of his way to not comment on his GOAT status, saying it's impossible to compare players across eras. (unlike lebron, who has loudly and publicly declared himself the GOAT).

i can't put russell ahead of MJ for all the reasons people keep him out of their top five or whatever (which is preposterous) - there were 8 to 14 teams in the league, he didn't dominate statistically, etc. but he was an olympic caliber athlete that won 11 championships in his 13 years, as player coach for two of them. that's ludicrous. in a loaded generation before it was watered down by expansion and the ABA. and he owned wilt, who was was the most gifted and dominant player of the era (maybe of all time). he had the same tenacity and competitiveness and refusal to lose that MJ did, by all accounts.

but jordan hit his prime and never lost again in a much more advanced era with 30 teams, which is obviously much harder to do*. and dominated both ends of the floor. came through an unfathomable amount of times. made his teammates better. etc. his GOAT status is indisputable in my opinion and anyone that thinks otherwise was either not alive or is just hating. (i know you've been vocally in the latter camp).

*even if i'd agree that the league was more watered down during his time than russell's, or lebron's. that cuts both ways. jordan's third or fourth option was like horace grant and bj armstrong, or toni kukoc and steve kerr. true role players vs the stars you see of recent times like chris bosh bosh and ray allen, or klay thompson/draymond/iguodala.

here's my top ten for the record, in tiers:

Tier 1

1. MJ - the pole should be to vote for second place

Tier 2
2. bill russell (for reasons above - probably should be in his own tier 2)
3. kareem (massive list of accomplishments, was great for a long time. his best decade was the leagues worst and he only got one championship out of it)

Tier 3
4. lebron
5. wilt
these two are in the same tier to me. possessed the biggest advantages in terms of blending physical gifts with natural talent the league's probably ever seen. both egomaniacs, one obsessed with statistical dominance and the other obsessed with manufacturing/curating his legacy. both have underachieved relative to their talent levels in their eras. both played alongside shitloads of talent that absolutely should have been enough to win more than they have/did, despite what their supporters will tell you. edge goes to lebron for the extra championship and longevity, even if i think his last championship was bogus.

Tier 4
6. magic
7. larry
larry had the higher peak and hit it earlier in his career (he was much older despite them coming into the league at the same time), magic has better overall resume

Tier 5
8. shaq
9. duncan
10. kobe
essentially a three way tie. i can't really separate them. peak shaq was a force unlike i've ever seen.

Lol. Where you been, man? Rings are pretty much all they say when they're all trying to defend their legacy vs. Lebron. It took me just a few minutes to find these.... there are lots more:

Michael Jordan Ranks Kobe Bryant over LeBron James, Saying 'Five Beats Three'

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/l...re-everything/

NBA Championship rings are all that matter; Jordan 6, Me 5, Bird 3, LeBron 2 and Dr. J 1.
— Earvin Magic Johnson (@MagicJohnson) August 22, 2013

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/08/mag...es-top-players

Kobe Bryant: All I thought about as a kid personally was winning championships. That’s all I cared about. That's how I valued Michael. That's how I valued [Larry] Bird. That's how I valued Magic [Johnson]. It was just winning championships. Now, everybody's going to value things differently, which is fine. I'm just telling you how I value mine.

If I'm Bron, you got to figure out a way to win. It's not about narrative. You want to win championships, you just gotta figure it out.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...lebrons-legacy

[chris]

Lol. Where you been, man? Rings are pretty much all they say when they're all trying to defend their legacy vs. Lebron. It took me just a few minutes to find these.... there are lots more:



https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/l...re-everything/




https://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/08/mag...es-top-players




https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...lebrons-legacy

fair enough. i consume an unhealthy amount of media related to the NBA, but this type of shit just washes right over me and i never pay any attention to this type of gossip.

to be fair, MJ said in the same "article" you've linked to that he'd rather have durant than either of them, before KD got a ring. and the count was 5 to 1 for kobe at the time, not 5 to 3. i'd have taken kobe at that point in time too. plus kobe was his mentor.

at the same time, when discussing the GOATs whom all have quite accomplished resumes, it has to be a differentiating factor no? probably the most important differentiating factor? to me anyway, which is probably the reason my personal list looks the way it does.

[Puffer]

Bill Russell taking it coast-to-coast at full speed and jumping over a guy after a few giant steps looks so much like Giannis. That type of athleticism would have easily translated today.

Imagine if he had the advantage of the training, nutrition, load management knowledge and also the summertime off season work that is common with professionals now. You can't ignore the lack of knowledge and understanding of the human body that players faced 65 years ago. If it had been available it would have made a huge difference in what they were capable of.

[Fuchan]

I felt like this before, but after watching the last dance it rings all the more true. Jordan was built to win. He took it personally. He took the game personally, the comments, hell even things that didn't happen. He took it as a slight against him and directed every fibre of his being to crush his opponents. Nobody has that today, and probably we will never see determination like that again. Maybe Kobe came the closest, but we know who he idolized.

[MixxAOR]

Damn KAJ is GOAT

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...lywood-1303210

[The Great One]

Kareem is right. I'm been saying this for over a week now, where Is the outrage over anti-semitism in sports and hollywood?

As for Ice Cube, Ice Cube is no different from Stephen Jackson, he's just another racist, black supremacist. He's so racist he doesn't even know it. All you need to do is read his idiotic tweets.

[G__Deane]

Damn KAJ is GOAT

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...lywood-1303210

So lebron, you gonna stand with Kareem or Ice Cube? Which one matches your "mission"

[Apollo]

It depends, is either a communist? Because LeBron seems to be down pleasing communists so he can sell shoes in China.