2020 End of Season / Playoffs

[golden]

Sure, I just wonder what it is about it that gets under people's skin. What's the difference if Bryan Colangelo made the trade happen or Kevin Durant made the trade happen? I can understand it watch Lebron's draft class. He gave Cleveland 2 full contracts, Bosh did the same in Toronto, both orgs couldn't put a winner together. So the players got themselves on a winner. Doesn't really bother me.

There's some history of player empowerment, it has gone next level. But Magic got the coach he wanted in the 80s. Barkley pushed his way out of Philly. MJ notoriously butted heads with the Bulls front office but they did manage to get him the pieces he needed. What if they hadn't? What if Cleveland had gotten Lebron the pieces the first time around?

I can appreciate an NBA athlete has a sense the clock is ticking and a pretty small window in his prime to make the most of his career. Does he waste that being a nice guy under incompetent leadership? Part of the pressure is on media and fans for defining everything as RINGZ or bust. A guy can have a Karl Malone career and his legacy has a huge asterisk and people will say "but never won a ring" almost every time his name is mentioned.

And to be clear there's a very small number of guys with the power to do this. Maybe 5? Out of 300 or whatever.

It's the avoidance of the challenge. People want to see the best players go head-to-head and not team up with each other and steamroll everybody else. If the best players somehow end up on the same team, organically, then that's the luck of the draw. Still doesn't guarantee a championship either (e.g. Harden, Durant, Westbrook). But when the player himself avoids that challenge of competing with the best..... that speaks to his character and competitive spirit.

Michael Jordan: There's no way that in hindsight now, I would have ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson], and said "hey, let's get together and play on one team." But things are different - I can't say that's a bad thing. That's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys. I don't know if they would have been on my team. Obviously, when you look at the Dream Team, they were all on my team, and it wasn't too much of a competitive thing. You know, I'm a competitive guy, and I like to play against competitive players and see what happens from there.

https://chicagoist.com/2010/07/19/jordan_on_lebron.php

Add Magic Johnson's voice to fellow Hall of Famer Michael Jordan's: Neither ever thought of combining forces the way LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh did earlier this month with the Miami Heat.

"We didn't think about it 'cause that's not what we were about," Johnson said at Baruch College in New York, according to Bloomberg News. "From college, I was trying to figure out how to beat Larry Bird."

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=5395989

That said... I can also understand why Lebron did what he did, because he was put between a rock & a hard place. The old school guys also criticized him mercilessly for not winning championships.... but that wasn't his fault because he got drafted into a crappy organization. The old school guys are just flaunting the fact that they were lucky enough to land in great organizations and to be surrounded by top tier role players and elite coaches. MJ wins nothing without Pippen and PJax. Lebron had no choice but to seek that out on his own to rightfully get himself back in the GOAT conversation. It's easy to see how people can be on both sides of the argument.

[MixxAOR]

Ok you sign a contract and you played it out I can see logic in that but why you bringing up LeBron and Bosh they were free agents. Free agents can decide whatever they want. That's whole point of free agency. Free agents of that level are not waiting for teams to "smartly" pick them. They go where they want

[G__Deane]

When you sign a contract and accept that as security, you play out your contract. Period.
And yes, you could be traded since that was what you collectively bargained. Nowhere do I see a clause that says "unless you feel you're worth more during term"

So what if the player is performing well below expectations? He still gets paid every dime (unless it's NFL)

Attempting to void a valid contract irks me. It's a separate issue from FA forming super teams.

[DanH]

Good points.

I just think to most people it's different if management tries to bring in the right free agents and make solid trades and fit it all under the cap than a player that says "X is signing in Y city and I know I have 2 years left in that contract I signed a year ago but I want to go play with him"

Bosh Wade and lebron all played for identical salaries I believe in Miami (~20M) that were less than market rate in order to buy a chip.
Is lebron allowed to say I make 100M a year in endorsements so I'll forego my pay in order to bring in an other star under the cap?

Manufacturing fake elite teams just doesn't seem right and generally screws the small market teams. Not as bad as the Yankees for instance who had a $200M team salary while a handful of others were 60.....

I just think it should fall more to smart management and solid drafting and trades rather than players colluding and breaking valid contracts.

The team signed that contract too, but they are free to trade the player away at any time. Why is that not viewed as breaking the contract? Just because it's what you are used to, not for any real logical reason.

Players shouldn't be allowed to decide to play on cheap contracts if they want to? But teams get to carry rookies for 4 years way below their market value?

[DanH]

I agree the Raps would have been a good test for the lakers but AD would have run Gasol off the court

They don't want to play AD at the 5. Gasol would have taken the Dwight and McGee minutes. Maybe they abandon those late in the series, but that was the strength of the Raptors having two solid C options. Also, even if they do go small, the Lakers have SO MANY options on the wing to hide a slow C on and play zone against.

[G__Deane]

The NBA is probably the only major team sport where 2 or 3 players can impact wins and losses significantly. Wouldn't work with any of the other sports you mentioned I think.

Another good point.

It's true that those main 2-3 players are on the court for most of the game, unlike other sports but in hockey it still worked pretty well for Gretzky/Kurri/Messier, Lemieux/Jagr and Crosby/Malkin and barring Pocklington's selling of Gretzky to LA, none of them had to move around to form super teams, they were super players.

[LJ2]

Is the NBA the only pro league where players collude/conspire to sign on the same teams in FA? Or force their way out of valid contracts to form super teams? Cause I don't see this in the NHL or MLB or NFL. Or maybe I'm forgetting examples. That's what fans are hating on.

The NBA is probably the only major team sport where 2 or 3 players can impact wins and losses significantly. Wouldn't work with any of the other sports you mentioned I think.

[slaw]

Is the NBA the only pro league where players collude/conspire to sign on the same teams in FA? Or force their way out of valid contracts to form super teams? Cause I don't see this in the NHL or MLB or NFL. Or maybe I'm forgetting examples. That's what fans are hating on.

Won’t happen in baseball. Players leaving money on the table is a big no-no. Only super teams are the Dodgers and Yankees cause they will spend. No one is taking discounts.

Don’t think it really works in hockey or football.

[G__Deane]

Sure, I just wonder what it is about it that gets under people's skin. What's the difference if Bryan Colangelo made the trade happen or Kevin Durant made the trade happen? I can understand it watch Lebron's draft class. He gave Cleveland 2 full contracts, Bosh did the same in Toronto, both orgs couldn't put a winner together. So the players got themselves on a winner. Doesn't really bother me.

There's some history of player empowerment, it has gone next level. But Magic got the coach he wanted in the 80s. Barkley pushed his way out of Philly. MJ notoriously butted heads with the Bulls front office but they did manage to get him the pieces he needed. What if they hadn't? What if Cleveland had gotten Lebron the pieces the first time around?

I can appreciate an NBA athlete has a sense the clock is ticking and a pretty small window in his prime to make the most of his career. Does he waste that being a nice guy under incompetent leadership? Part of the pressure is on media and fans for defining everything as RINGZ or bust. A guy can have a Karl Malone career and his legacy has a huge asterisk and people will say "but never won a ring" almost every time his name is mentioned.

And to be clear there's a very small number of guys with the power to do this. Maybe 5? Out of 300 or whatever.

Good points.

I just think to most people it's different if management tries to bring in the right free agents and make solid trades and fit it all under the cap than a player that says "X is signing in Y city and I know I have 2 years left in that contract I signed a year ago but I want to go play with him"

Bosh Wade and lebron all played for identical salaries I believe in Miami (~20M) that were less than market rate in order to buy a chip.
Is lebron allowed to say I make 100M a year in endorsements so I'll forego my pay in order to bring in an other star under the cap?

Manufacturing fake elite teams just doesn't seem right and generally screws the small market teams. Not as bad as the Yankees for instance who had a $200M team salary while a handful of others were 60.....

I just think it should fall more to smart management and solid drafting and trades rather than players colluding and breaking valid contracts.

[S.R.]

Is the NBA the only pro league where players collude/conspire to sign on the same teams in FA? Or force their way out of valid contracts to form super teams? Cause I don't see this in the NHL or MLB or NFL. Or maybe I'm forgetting examples. That's what fans are hating on.

Sure, I just wonder what it is about it that gets under people's skin. What's the difference if Bryan Colangelo made the trade happen or Kevin Durant made the trade happen? I can understand it watch Lebron's draft class. He gave Cleveland 2 full contracts, Bosh did the same in Toronto, both orgs couldn't put a winner together. So the players got themselves on a winner. Doesn't really bother me.

There's some history of player empowerment, it has gone next level. But Magic got the coach he wanted in the 80s. Barkley pushed his way out of Philly. MJ notoriously butted heads with the Bulls front office but they did manage to get him the pieces he needed. What if they hadn't? What if Cleveland had gotten Lebron the pieces the first time around?

I can appreciate an NBA athlete has a sense the clock is ticking and a pretty small window in his prime to make the most of his career. Does he waste that being a nice guy under incompetent leadership? Part of the pressure is on media and fans for defining everything as RINGZ or bust. A guy can have a Karl Malone career and his legacy has a huge asterisk and people will say "but never won a ring" almost every time his name is mentioned.

And to be clear there's a very small number of guys with the power to do this. Maybe 5? Out of 300 or whatever.

[G__Deane]

Yeah people complain about the Warriors and the Heatles just because the players got themselves together. From a competitive standpoint? The Lakers were in the Finals 8 of 10 years in the 80's, the Celtics were there 5 years, and people loved the 80's. Those teams were stacked.

Is the NBA the only pro league where players collude/conspire to sign on the same teams in FA? Or force their way out of valid contracts to form super teams? Cause I don't see this in the NHL or MLB or NFL. Or maybe I'm forgetting examples. That's what fans are hating on.

[S.R.]

Despite all the superteams, the 2010s had more different NBA champs (7) than the 00s (6), 90s (5) or 80s (4).

Yeah people complain about the Warriors and the Heatles just because the players got themselves together. From a competitive standpoint? The Lakers were in the Finals 8 of 10 years in the 80's, the Celtics were there 5 years, and people loved the 80's. Those teams were stacked.

[G__Deane]

Without home-court & distractions, bubble ball was all about match-ups. The Heat matched up perfectly with the Bucks. The Celtics long, athletic defenders, matched up perfectly with the Raps. The Nuggets, with a play-making big man, matched up perfectly with the Clippers. Lakers faced crappy defenses and even in the Finals, the Heat aren't a top 10 defense.

All that said: the Raps matched up perfectly with the Lakers. If any team was the Lakers Kryptonite.... it was us. There would be no Lebronto this year. DeRozan is gone, Lowry is no longer afraid or intimidated by Lebron and the rest of the team has championship swagger.

If Gasol had only won his minutes in game 7.......

I agree the Raps would have been a good test for the lakers but AD would have run Gasol off the court

[G__Deane]

Despite all the superteams, the 2010s had more different NBA champs (7) than the 00s (6), 90s (5) or 80s (4).

lebron kept bailing ....

[golden]

Heat's Adebayo, Dragic doubtful for Game 2 of NBA Finals vs. Lakers

And reports say Gasol will check out NBA opportunities first before Europe as plan B

Kawhi will be calling, 100% for sure.