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Vince Carter's Retirement

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  • #46
    S.R. wrote: View Post

    Yeah, but there's a pretty big asterisk there. Only Vince got there by spending half his career (actually) as a journeyman bouncing around to lottery teams so he could still get his 10-15 mpg off the bench. His career per game numbers are all worse than those guys, who more or less played their entire careers as stars. And won championships. Usually as the best player on the team.

    Vince's totals are a bit misleading imho, need a bit of context. He wanted to play a long time, stay healthy, and put up box score numbers. He did - congratulations.

    Not to minimize too much. His peak was very good. It's just a weird career arc that's atypical once you start listing guys at that level.

    Also he only had 4 playoff runs as an offensive focal point (20+ ppg) and he never got out of the second round. Actually only got to the 3rd round once in his career and never further than that. Again, the other guys you put him in conversation with when you pull his games/minutes/points totals have rings.
    Plus, when you set minimum 3 pointers made as a stat requirement, the list is going to be flooded with many more people soon.
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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    • #47
      it's one of the weirder careers i can recall, closely split about 50/50 between being a huge star and a journeyman role player. closest analogue i can think of is maybe grant hill, but catastrophic injuries divided his career so that made sense. maybe ray allen, but the portion of his career spent as role player was comparatively way shorter.

      anyhow definitely a HOFer, don't really think it's a first ballot resume. depending on the year and the class it could be.

      i don't think they'll sign him to a one day, at least i wouldn't. agree with poster earlier that's something we would have done a few years ago, back when we were hanging atlantic division banners.

      they should retire his jersey in a nice ceremony at some point. though i'm in favor of this being a few years down the line. KLOE should be first raptor jersey retired.

      in the immediate short term release a statement about his contributions and impact on basketball in canada

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      • #48
        I think they're going to retire his number as well. I think Kloe, DD and Vince's numbers will all be retired one day.

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        • #49
          The Great One wrote: View Post

          Next stop: number 15 gets raised to the rafters in Toronto. This is a no brainer. Question is WHEN not if because this pandemic has changed everything.

          I hope he signs a 1 day contract with the Raptors like when Halladay signed a 1 day contract with the Blue Jays when he retired.
          We know what happened with Roy's HoF induction when Brandy didn't honour his wishes to enter as a Blue Jay.
          What uniform will Vince wear....there were so many highlights in other unis

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          • #50
            G__Deane wrote: View Post

            We know what happened with Roy's HoF induction when Brandy didn't honour his wishes to enter as a Blue Jay.
            What uniform will Vince wear....there were so many highlights in other unis
            Yeah man, Halladay signed a 1 day contract 8 years ago so he can retire a Blue Jay. I watched that press conference. He said that if he gets inducted into the hall, he'd go in as a Blue Jay. That's what he said, it was on video. So I don't know what happened, when they inducted him into the hall last year, they didn't put a logo on his cap.
            Mamba Mentality

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            • #51
              Sonny wrote: View Post
              I think they're going to retire his number as well. I think Kloe, DD and Vince's numbers will all be retired one day.
              Kawhi in 1 year has accomplished more for Toronto than DeMar his whole Raptors career(9 years?). That's just facts. Kawhi Leonard is the greatest Raptors of all time. I'm done arguing this. #2 should be up in the rafters one day. A no brainer. He's the reason the Raptors have a championship.

              Kawhi
              Lowry
              Vince

              These three are no brainer.

              I'm 50-50 on DeRozan.
              Mamba Mentality

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              • #52
                The Great One wrote: View Post

                Yeah man, Halladay signed a 1 day contract 8 years ago so he can retire a Blue Jay. I watched that press conference. He said that if he gets inducted into the hall, he'd go in as a Blue Jay. That's what he said, it was on video. So I don't know what happened, when they inducted him into the hall last year, they didn't put a logo on his cap.
                Brandy said she decided it was better for him to go in with no logo on his cap.
                Before some yahoo says "I think his wife knew his choice more than we did" she took a lot of heat for the decision and for sure would have said Roy had changed his mind, we had talked about it" etc if it ever happened. She's American, he played in Philly, his kids are American, she made a pizz poor decision on her own imo.

                "We decided. We talked about it," Halladay's wife, Brandy, said after the news conference, flanked by her sons. "There's no way to decide between the two teams, and I know we've spent the majority of our time in Toronto. Toronto gave us that chance, that base at the start, but Philly also gave us a chance to win and the passion that we wanted, and there's no way to choose and so we decided that he'll go in with no team."

                I read all her statements and interviews. Not once did she say Roy changed his mind. She said "we decided" after he died. She simply decided not to honour his wishes and should be ashamed of herself.

                https://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/m...aque-1.4990227

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                • #53
                  chris wrote: View Post
                  it's one of the weirder careers i can recall, closely split about 50/50 between being a huge star and a journeyman role player. closest analogue i can think of is maybe grant hill, but catastrophic injuries divided his career so that made sense. maybe ray allen, but the portion of his career spent as role player was comparatively way shorter.

                  anyhow definitely a HOFer, don't really think it's a first ballot resume. depending on the year and the class it could be.
                  Closer to 4-5 years being a huge star and the other 15 split between decent and journeyman cheque casher......he was nowhere near a huge star for half his career imo

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                  • #54
                    G__Deane wrote: View Post

                    Brandy said she decided it was better for him to go in with no logo on his cap.
                    Before some yahoo says "I think his wife knew his choice more than we did" she took a lot of heat for the decision and for sure would have said Roy had changed his mind, we had talked about it" etc if it ever happened. She's American, he played in Philly, his kids are American, she made a pizz poor decision on her own imo.

                    "We decided. We talked about it," Halladay's wife, Brandy, said after the news conference, flanked by her sons. "There's no way to decide between the two teams, and I know we've spent the majority of our time in Toronto. Toronto gave us that chance, that base at the start, but Philly also gave us a chance to win and the passion that we wanted, and there's no way to choose and so we decided that he'll go in with no team."

                    I read all her statements and interviews. Not once did she say Roy changed his mind. She said "we decided" after he died. She simply decided not to honour his wishes and should be ashamed of herself.

                    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/m...aque-1.4990227
                    Complete BS imo. Roy said it himself that if he gets inducted into the hall he'd go in with the Blue Jays logo on his hall of fame plaque. That's why he retired a Blue Jay. He was a Blue Jay, he spent most of his career in Toronto. He had a cup of coffee in Philly, just like Paul Molitor had a cup of coffee in Toronto. Molitor didn't enter the hall without a logo on his cap.
                    Mamba Mentality

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                    • #55
                      The Great One wrote: View Post

                      Complete BS imo. Roy said it himself that if he gets inducted into the hall he'd go in with the Blue Jays logo on his hall of fame plaque. That's why he retired a Blue Jay. He was a Blue Jay, he spent most of his career in Toronto. He had a cup of coffee in Philly, just like Paul Molitor had a cup of coffee in Toronto. Molitor didn't enter the hall without a logo on his cap.
                      "12 years in the big leagues with Jays and 15 years total in the organization that drafted and developed him, including Mel Queen completely rebuilding his mechanics, versus 4 years in Philly (3-1/2 really due to injury). But hey, there's no way to choose"....and yes, Roy was on record as wanting to enter the Hall as a Jay even before signing his last one day contract to retire as one.

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                      • #56
                        G__Deane wrote: View Post

                        Brandy said she decided it was better for him to go in with no logo on his cap.
                        Before some yahoo says "I think his wife knew his choice more than we did" she took a lot of heat for the decision and for sure would have said Roy had changed his mind, we had talked about it" etc if it ever happened. She's American, he played in Philly, his kids are American, she made a pizz poor decision on her own imo.

                        "We decided. We talked about it," Halladay's wife, Brandy, said after the news conference, flanked by her sons. "There's no way to decide between the two teams, and I know we've spent the majority of our time in Toronto. Toronto gave us that chance, that base at the start, but Philly also gave us a chance to win and the passion that we wanted, and there's no way to choose and so we decided that he'll go in with no team."

                        I read all her statements and interviews. Not once did she say Roy changed his mind. She said "we decided" after he died. She simply decided not to honour his wishes and should be ashamed of herself.

                        https://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/m...aque-1.4990227
                        If Halladay had actually won a World Series, I could see the argument for the Phillies. But he never even made it to the big stage. And 2 out of his 4 years in Philly, he never even made the playoffs. Even then, he only appeared in 5 post-season games. That's it. 5 games. You blow off the Jays for 5 playoff games with the Phillies? I wouldn't be surprised if there's something between Brandy and someone in the Jays front-office or ownership at the time that's not being said here. Feels like somebody's being petty or holding a grudge about something we don't know about.

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                        • #57
                          golden wrote: View Post

                          If Halladay had actually won a World Series, I could see the argument for the Phillies. But he never even made it to the big stage. And 2 out of his 4 years in Philly, he never even made the playoffs. Even then, he only appeared in 5 post-season games. That's it. 5 games. You blow off the Jays for 5 playoff games with the Phillies? I wouldn't be surprised if there's something between Brandy and someone in the Jays front-office or ownership at the time that's not being said here. Feels like somebody's being petty or holding a grudge about something we don't know about.
                          Or she was more pizzed at Roy than we know about. Who knows, not worth speculating.

                          Bottom line is we know Roy's wishes, she never said they changed, she said screw it to his wishes. It's in the past, she has to live with herself but I would have loved someone in the media to have the balls to ask "what about his stated wishes in the interview?"
                          Too close to his death I suppose.

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                          • #58
                            Vince is obviously such a polarizing figure.

                            The thing that I'm not hearing enough of in the conversation about him going to the hall, amidst the point totals, the all-star selections, and the lack of winning in the postseason, is how astonishingly superhuman he was. He was the human highlight reel. He was MUST SEE TV. In a way that really, nobody had been since Jordan. (yes, Kobe was.) It's a shame he didn't have the killer instinct of a Michael or a Kobe... but he certainly had the other-worldly, astonishing athleticism. There's no doubt for me that one of the primary reasons I've grown to appreciate basketball over say hockey is the unbelievable, mind-bending feats of athleticism. Vince Carter jumping over the 7-foot centre is without a doubt the best in-game dunk I've ever seen. It defies comprehension. But he was doing absolutely astounding shit every single day. One of the biggest things basketball has going for it, maybe the biggest thing is that astonishment factor. And Vince took things to another level. And that's why he's going to the hall.

                            I'm not saying you put a Corey Magette or a friggin Darius Miles or an Aaron Gordon in just cause they could dunk. But Vince, in his moment, was the single greatest entertainer in the NBA. And while I wish that we could've built a better organization sooner and he'd stayed with us and he got his ring and his legit accolades and achievements for an indisputable resume --- the NBA has become a league that's also based largely on entertainment. And Vince is one of the greatest entertainers the league has ever seen.

                            If I have to pin-point it ... this is about the moment the doors to the hall opened to him:



                            The more I think about it, it just makes so much sense that Vince went on to become the only player to span 4 decades in the league. Because while the gates swung open for him at that moment, in order to pass through those doors he knew full well he'd have to run this league like the longest marathon in order to secure his place in the hall. His lack of winning on the big stage held too much of a possibility of dashing those dreams.

                            But he did it. And whether it's first or second ballot, he's a HOFer.





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                            • #59
                              To the other points...

                              I don't think he signs a one-day here. I don't know that he or the Raptors will really ultimately need that. He had his own journey. It started here. ...It travelled more places than Forrest Gump. And I think there's something fitting about him ending his career in ATL, where he mentored younger players and in a city which is one of the more important sites in this movement against anti-black racism in the states. That said, I hope and trust that he goes to the Hall as a Raptor.

                              I think you retire his number first, yup. Primarily because it's classy on OUR part and it's what all the players want. Kyle says he should be the first Raptor jersey in the rafters --- so I'm good with that, too.

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                              • #60
                                Retiring Vince is a no brainer. Raps have always been big on the 99-03 alumni and he is the poster boy of that crew. And it doesn't fucking matter who goes in "first", Lowry is 4 years from retiring likely, Derozan and Kawhi are maybe 8 years from retiring
                                It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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