Vince Carter's Retirement

[Fuchan]

That's when you close your mouth, put your head down and play out our contract....you know, be a pro ..... guys that quit trying should forfeit their pay cheques imo

This is around the time (IMO) the power of NBA started shifting to players. It started to become about making players happy, and as you can see today, the players run the league. He was the talent, it was the managements job to make him happy. I'm not saying it's right, just the way it is. We probably will never know what happened behind closed doors, but it's not like it was a Kawhi situation (leaving no matter what). I think with a few smart moves he could have stayed. Or maybe something happened behind closed doors where the relationship became unfixable. We will never know, but it's easy to say just be a professional when looking in from the outside. It's hard to put your head down and be professional if you feel like maybe management is against you or doesn't have you best interest at heart.

Before I felt like we had to retire his jersey because we were desperate to have some team history. Now it's because we are the bigger team/organization and don't hold any grudges. He can sit around and talk about the what if's. "Oh if me and Tracy stayed together... etc..." Guess what? We don't care about that. We the Champs, thanks for stopping by.

[chris]

I said "top competing team" ie top seeds and you come back with Phoenix, Dallas and Memphis.... were any of them you mentioned top 1-3 seeds in their conference? I honestly don't know but I doubt it, maybe Dallas?

well it's a particularly specific and meaningless requirement you have. top contenders tend to be top-heavy with massive contracts and filled out with cheap back-of-the-first-round, 2nd round, undrafted, and vet minimum contracts. maybe an MLE in there too. most players in vince's age category during those years would have been in the vet minimum category, except his market was much higher than that, so much so that he signed two guaranteed 3 year deals with playoff teams. i'm sure the miami's, san antonio's, and golden state's would have loved to have had him if he was bought out or whatever but it never happened.

when he was available on the cheap he was 40 to 43 years old. i can see why a contender would go with another option at that point.

[The Great One]

Watching those old playoff games with adult perspective is an eye opener.

Morris Peterson and Alvin Williams were not good nba players. We thought they were, but on a good roster, those guys are middle of the bench plugs at best. The team was vince.

the only other plus we had was front court toughness and grit with jyd, Davis, and Oakley. But these guys were all still just role players

The best player that Vince ever played w/ in TO was Antonio Davis. Think about that. I know he made the all star team in 01 as a substitute but let's be honest, Antonio Davis is a role player/energy guy/good rebounder. And then there's guys like Alvin Williams and JYD and Mo Pete, Curry and a way past his prime Charles Oakley. They're all bench players on a championship team. Alvin on a championship team is PROBABLY a backup PG but he was a starter for the Raptors.

Norman Powell is a lot better player than Morris Peterson. Mo Pete after Davis left became the Raptors second best plyaer. Powell last year on a championship team was the Raptors 8th man/9th man.

[The Great One]

It really becomes Masai's call. As far as I know he has no connections with Vince at all though. So if he were to do it, it would be pressure from the fans/media. And since I think most of the fans want to see his number get retired it'll happen.

I was looking for a close comparison in terms of optics. Can't think of someone who quit on his team and still got honoured years later.

Vince only played 6.5 years and didn't have much playoff success. From that perspective, I know that Dikembe got his number retired in Atlanta. Dikembe only played 4 seasons over there, and also didn't get passed the second round (got there twice, lost 4-1 and 4-0 in back to back seasons). He was a 2x DPOY and 4x all-star as a Hawk.

So it is not unprecedented to honour a player who only played for your team for a short time and still didn't have tremendous team success. But the "quitting on the team" angle is hard to forgive for some.

Does Deron Williams get his number retired by Utah? How about Dwight in Orlando? What about Melo in Denver? Or Anthony Davis in New Orleans?

Either way.. if Vince gets his number retired, I hope they wait until Lowry retires first. Since it's the team's first jersey retirement I think it needs to be extra special.

Why do Raptors fans care so much who goes first?

[Fuchan]

Why do Raptors fans care so much who goes first?

Probably because we haven't retired any jerseys yet. So the first one in many peoples mind should be the most significant Raptor of all time, which people have varied opinions on.

[The Great One]

Probably because we haven't retired any jerseys yet. So the first one in many peoples mind should be the most significant Raptor of all time, which people have varied opinions on.

Vince is actually the most significant Raptors of all time. He put Toronto on the map. He was their first true superstar. Most if not all Canadian NBA players idolized him. At some point in the early 2000's there was a debate on who you'd rather have - Vince or Kobe? that was a legit debate.

Retiring Vince's number would actually be a bigger event than retiring Kawhi or Kyle's number imo. He's not the greatest Raptor of all time, it's Kawhi, he's not the most accomplished Raptor, it's Kyle, but Vince is an icon in Toronto sports.

[Fuchan]

Vince is actually the most significant Raptors of all time. He put Toronto on the map. He was their first true superstar. Most if not all Canadian NBA players idolized him. At some point in the early 2000's there was a debate on who you'd rather have - Vince or Kobe? that was a legit debate.

Retiring Vince's number would actually be a bigger event than retiring Kawhi or Kyle's number imo. He's not the greatest Raptor of all time, it's Kawhi, he's not the most accomplished Raptor, it's Kyle, but Vince is an icon in Toronto sports.

I agree. I don't think we can overlook how much he spiked out popularity back then. Who knows where we would be if we just kept having miserable seasons during the stretch Vince was breaking out. Maybe We're the Cincinnati Raptors lol.

[KeonClark]

Probably because we haven't retired any jerseys yet. So the first one in many peoples mind should be the most significant Raptor of all time, which people have varied opinions on.

No, it should be the first one to retire that actually deserves it. Hence, VC15. #7 will get his due next, followed by #10.

[The Great One]

No, it should be the first one to retire that actually deserves it. Hence, VC15. #7 will get his due next, followed by #10.

I agree with this.

[Sonny]

Kawhi in 1 year has accomplished more for Toronto than DeMar his whole Raptors career(9 years?). That's just facts. Kawhi Leonard is the greatest Raptors of all time. I'm done arguing this. #2 should be up in the rafters one day. A no brainer. He's the reason the Raptors have a championship.

Kawhi
Lowry
Vince

These three are no brainer.

I'm 50-50 on DeRozan.

You have no clue dude. DeMar played 9 years in Toronto, gave his heart and soul for this team, all time Raptors scoring leader, leader in most every statistical category and he represented Toronto proudly. Put some respect in his name.

[The Great One]

You have no clue dude. DeMar played 9 years in Toronto, gave his heart and soul for this team, all time Raptors scoring leader, leader in most every statistical category and he represented Toronto proudly. Put some respect in his name.

[bertarapsfan]

What if Amir played his whole career here and was a part of the championship team? Would anyone want his 15 in the rafters over carters?

[S.R.]

I don't buy the "Raptors may have been the Grizzlies without Vince" angle at all. Toronto's a good sports town and the Raptors always did pretty well with attendance and profitability, even during the down years. Always. Never dropped to bottom 5 in attendance or anything like that.

All the Canadian kids cracking the NBA the last few years point to Vince, hard to say if anyone really played because of him or if they just loved him because they were ballers and he was a star on the Raptors.

I've heard Leo or a former Raptor or someone say things like there were no courts in Toronto and after Vince kids were playing basketball everywhere. That's straight BS. I may be a bit biased having gotten into basketball in the late 80's, but trust me there were courts and kids balling and solid school programs long before Vince showed up.

A star does inspire kids to play. I have an 11 year old who's spent a lot more time playing ball on the driveway since the championship run. Takes 'The Shot' at least once a day and yells Kawhi. So that stuff does happen, it's hard to put an objective measurement on it though. Certainly Vince didn't create a bunch of basketball fans that were visible after he left. Like usual the hype drops a bit when the team is bad and picks up when it's good.

I wouldn't retire his jersey but won't be mad if they do. You can make a reasonable case for it.

[KeonClark]

What if Amir played his whole career here and was a part of the championship team? Would anyone want his 15 in the rafters over carters?

No. You need both longevity and some star power. Amir had undying loyalty but was a role player, and not even a high end role player, but a mid tier role player. If that, tbh.

to me, jerseys in rafters is like your teams personal hall of fame. At minimum, you should need to have both a) signed at least contract with the team and b) made an all star appearance

that's why I lean towards no with Kawhi. He was a professional mercenary who was never going to stay. A virtual rental. Would you put someone in the hall of fame who had one blistering mvp season and fell of the map? Kawhi was the best, most talented raptor ever. But greatest? Not even top 3.

[KeonClark]

I don't buy the "Raptors may have been the Grizzlies without Vince" angle at all. Toronto's a good sports town and the Raptors always did pretty well with attendance and profitability, even during the down years. Always. Never dropped to bottom 5 in attendance or anything like that.

All the Canadian kids cracking the NBA the last few years point to Vince, hard to say if anyone really played because of him or if they just loved him because they were ballers and he was a star on the Raptors.

I've heard Leo or a former Raptor or someone say things like there were no courts in Toronto and after Vince kids were playing basketball everywhere. That's straight BS. I may be a bit biased having gotten into basketball in the late 80's, but trust me there were courts and kids balling and solid school programs long before Vince showed up.

A star does inspire kids to play. I have an 11 year old who's spent a lot more time playing ball on the driveway since the championship run. Takes 'The Shot' at least once a day and yells Kawhi. So that stuff does happen, it's hard to put an objective measurement on it though. Certainly Vince didn't create a bunch of basketball fans that were visible after he left. Like usual the hype drops a bit when the team is bad and picks up when it's good.

I wouldn't retire his jersey but won't be mad if they do. You can make a reasonable case for it.

Not sure about the bolded. I remember a thread here one time where about a dozen people had said they became fans watching vince. I think raptors fans that are like 29-36 years old right now, a lot of them were vince Carter disciples.