Vince Carter's Retirement

[planetmars]

Why do Raptors fans care so much who goes first?

Retiring a guys number is the greatest honour a team can give to a player. The first guy you ever honour is a really special moment. Vince has a cloud over him. If Vince's story was different I'd have no problem if he was the first. But his Raptor history is tainted.

And because of that I'd prefer to wait until the most deserving player (Lowry) gets in first.

The team probably doesn't wait.. but it's what I would like to see happen.

[G__Deane]

It really becomes Masai's call. As far as I know he has no connections with Vince at all though. So if he were to do it, it would be pressure from the fans/media. And since I think most of the fans want to see his number get retired it'll happen.

I was looking for a close comparison in terms of optics. Can't think of someone who quit on his team and still got honoured years later.

Vince only played 6.5 years and didn't have much playoff success. From that perspective, I know that Dikembe got his number retired in Atlanta. Dikembe only played 4 seasons over there, and also didn't get passed the second round (got there twice, lost 4-1 and 4-0 in back to back seasons). He was a 2x DPOY and 4x all-star as a Hawk.

So it is not unprecedented to honour a player who only played for your team for a short time and still didn't have tremendous team success. But the "quitting on the team" angle is hard to forgive for some.

Does Deron Williams get his number retired by Utah? How about Dwight in Orlando? What about Melo in Denver? Or Anthony Davis in New Orleans?

Either way.. if Vince gets his number retired, I hope they wait until Lowry retires first. Since it's the team's first jersey retirement I think it needs to be extra special.

I think we all know the answers to those players is no, no, no and no.
They were really pushing the "forgive Vince, bring back Vince, retire Vince's number" a few years ago as some sort of fake feel good nostalgia thing in the absence of any real team success but that died down once Kawhi was here. Masai even shot down the rumour of bringing Vince back last year and we eventually won the chip.

He'll still get his jersey retired here but I doubt they wait for Lowry personally. They should tho ....

[G__Deane]

well it's a particularly specific and meaningless requirement you have. top contenders tend to be top-heavy with massive contracts and filled out with cheap back-of-the-first-round, 2nd round, undrafted, and vet minimum contracts. maybe an MLE in there too. most players in vince's age category during those years would have been in the vet minimum category, except his market was much higher than that, so much so that he signed two guaranteed 3 year deals with playoff teams. i'm sure the miami's, san antonio's, and golden state's would have loved to have had him if he was bought out or whatever but it never happened.

when he was available on the cheap he was 40 to 43 years old. i can see why a contender would go with another option at that point.

Fair enough, I'm nothing if not open to good counter points

[G__Deane]

Why do Raptors fans care so much who goes first?

Respect for what Lowry did for the Raptors overall vs what Vince didn't?

[Dr Hannibal Lecter]

I wish Vince played one more year with raps,just 2 close off his great career,but it was time,20 years have gone quickly,won't ever forget that slam dunk contest,it's was like star wars,I was just speechless..everyone came 2 c the Vince destroy the Ora of dunking of Ball. He was the High Light reel..period.
U won't be forgotten,definitely u are the reason I became a Raptors fan. Thank you Vince Carter...

[G__Deane]

I think the whole "VC inspired a whole generation of Canadian kids to pick up a basketball" is severely overblown.

Before Vince there were only a handful of Canadian NBA players (including some guy named Steve Nash)
This year there were about 20 Canadians on NBA rosters, a few of them even pretty good lol.
Great but hardly an earth shattering success after 20 years of "inspiration".

So we have Quitter-Carter to thank for .... Anthony Bennett?

[golden]

I think the whole "VC inspired a whole generation of Canadian kids to pick up a basketball" is severely overblown.

Before Vince there were only a handful of Canadian NBA players (including some guy named Steve Nash)
This year there were about 20 Canadians on NBA rosters, a few of them even pretty good lol.
Great but hardly an earth shattering success after 20 years of "inspiration".

So we have Quitter-Carter to thank for .... Anthony Bennett?

As a percentage of population, Canada’s NBA representation is stellar. Even more impressive if you consider that most of those players are coming from Toronto GTA area ..... Carter Effect in full effect.

[The Great One]

Retiring a guys number is the greatest honour a team can give to a player. The first guy you ever honour is a really special moment. Vince has a cloud over him. If Vince's story was different I'd have no problem if he was the first. But his Raptor history is tainted.

And because of that I'd prefer to wait until the most deserving player (Lowry) gets in first.

The team probably doesn't wait.. but it's what I would like to see happen.

I don't agree with that at all. It should be the first one to retire that deserves it. Lowry probably has 4-5 more years left in him. Kawhi probably has 8-10 more years.

Guess who's jersey the Bulls retired first? Jerry Sloan. Boston Celtics? Bob Cousy. Miami Heat? completely random, they retired Michael Jordan's number 23 first.

But speaking of special moment, when the Raptors retire Vince's number, whether they retire it first or second or third, it's going to be a bigger event than Lowry's jersey retirement or even Kawhi Leonard's jersey retirement. I guarantee. It would be huge event. TNT, ESPN and all these American networks might even broadcast it.

[chris]

But speaking of special moment, when the Raptors retire Vince's number, whether they retire it first or second or third, it's going to be a bigger event than Lowry's jersey retirement or even Kawhi Leonard's jersey retirement. I guarantee. It would be huge event. TNT, ESPN and all these American networks might even broadcast it.

bigger to whom? certainly not the majority of raptors fans.

[G__Deane]

As a percentage of population, Canada’s NBA representation is stellar. Even more impressive if you consider that most of those players are coming from Toronto GTA area ..... Carter Effect in full effect.

What are you basing this on? It's entirely untrue....

It's generally accepted that the US population is roughly 10X Canada's

During the season, NBA rosters are limited to 15 players, plus two additional spots for players under “two-way contracts.” During the off season, the NBA may have as many as 600 players (20 per team). During the regular season, the number is cut to 450, plus players who are on "two-way contracts."

So ~450 players in the NBA and the current number of Canadians is 16. Using the new math, I can see that is 3.5%, not the 10% you'd expect by population alone. It's even less if you want to discuss significant Canadian NBA players. Not stellar, pathetic if someone supposedly inspired a whole generation to hoop.

The "Carter Effect" is over blown as is his legacy.

PS these numbers would include Steve Nash's inspiring Canadian kids to play ball. Think on that ....

[planetmars]

I don't agree with that at all. It should be the first one to retire that deserves it. Lowry probably has 4-5 more years left in him. Kawhi probably has 8-10 more years.

Guess who's jersey the Bulls retired first? Jerry Sloan. Boston Celtics? Bob Cousy. Miami Heat? completely random, they retired Michael Jordan's number 23 first.

But speaking of special moment, when the Raptors retire Vince's number, whether they retire it first or second or third, it's going to be a bigger event than Lowry's jersey retirement or even Kawhi Leonard's jersey retirement. I guarantee. It would be huge event. TNT, ESPN and all these American networks might even broadcast it.

Sloan played for like 10 seasons with the Bulls and was selected in the expansion draft back in the day. Essentially he played on one team his whole career. He was a good pick, and I don't think there are any Bulls fans upset by that selection. Cousy was considered a GOAT for a long time. And easily one of the most recognizable Celtic legends.

The problem with Vince is that he demanded a trade out and was kicking and screaming on the way out. That's not someone you typically honour. And if you do he shouldn't be setting the bar. Otherwise we might as well start retiring guys like Chris Bosh or Damon Stoudamire as well.

[Sonny]

I don't agree with that at all. It should be the first one to retire that deserves it. Lowry probably has 4-5 more years left in him. Kawhi probably has 8-10 more years.

Guess who's jersey the Bulls retired first? Jerry Sloan. Boston Celtics? Bob Cousy. Miami Heat? completely random, they retired Michael Jordan's number 23 first.

But speaking of special moment, when the Raptors retire Vince's number, whether they retire it first or second or third, it's going to be a bigger event than Lowry's jersey retirement or even Kawhi Leonard's jersey retirement. I guarantee. It would be huge event. TNT, ESPN and all these American networks might even broadcast it.

DeRozan

[G__Deane]

Sloan played for like 10 seasons with the Bulls and was selected in the expansion draft back in the day. Essentially he played on one team his whole career. He was a good pick, and I don't think there are any Bulls fans upset by that selection. Cousy was considered a GOAT for a long time. And easily one of the most recognizable Celtic legends.

The problem with Vince is that he demanded a trade out and was kicking and screaming on the way out. That's not someone you typically honour. And if you do he shouldn't be setting the bar. Otherwise we might as well start retiring guys like Chris Bosh or Damon Stoudamire as well.

I'm hearing more of a call to celebrate Vince's contribution to the team in some manner short of retiring his number, THIS is an idea I could get behind. The problem is if it's some sort of wall of honour...there was no honour in the way he left or ultimately treated fans and teammates here.

Wall of Fame?
Wall of Short-Time-Greatness?
Wall of Best-Part-Of-His-Career-Was-Here?

Put him in the AS Dunk Contest Hall of Fame....

[golden]

What are you basing this on? It's entirely untrue....

It's generally accepted that the US population is roughly 10X Canada's

During the season, NBA rosters are limited to 15 players, plus two additional spots for players under “two-way contracts.” During the off season, the NBA may have as many as 600 players (20 per team). During the regular season, the number is cut to 450, plus players who are on "two-way contracts."

So ~450 players in the NBA and the current number of Canadians is 16. Using the new math, I can see that is 3.5%, not the 10% you'd expect by population alone. It's even less if you want to discuss significant Canadian NBA players. Not stellar, pathetic if someone supposedly inspired a whole generation to hoop.

The "Carter Effect" is over blown as is his legacy.

PS these numbers would include Steve Nash's inspiring Canadian kids to play ball. Think on that ....

International representation. Compare Canada to every other country outside the US. Stellar.

And look, I LOVE Steve Nash, but c’mon. How many of this generation’s black Canadian NBA kids, other than RJ Barrett, talk about being inspired to play by Nash?

[Apollo]

When it comes to retiring numbers and other honors the Raptors should look at what the most successful and respected franchises have done. The standard should be no lower than that. It's better the have the lone championship banner up there all by itself than have retired numbers of guys who matter less and less to the franchise's history as it ages and achieves more and more.

I only have one name I would put forth for certain right now: Kyle Lowry.

After that I am unsure. Emotion shouldn't play a factor. It should come down to individual, team and community achievements. Objectively looking at what Vince Carter achieved in Toronto, does that look like greatness? If so, how long was that greatness sustained. Now compare that to the numbers hanging in Staples and the Garden. Consider how long those people sustained their own greatness for those teams.