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Vince Carter's Retirement

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  • golden wrote: View Post

    Why does it have to be an Either/Or debate with Kawhi vs. DeRozan? First of all, without DeRozan, there is no Kawhi.

    DeRozan brought respectability, stability and sustained winning to the Raptors franchise for the first time. Why isn't that, on its own, worthy of a jersey retirement?

    More than 1/3rd of NBA franchises have never even won a championship, and a bunch more who haven't won in decades. A player like DeRozan would be a no-brainer jersey retirement for those franchises, even just for the loyalty/sentimental reasons.... like you mentioned guys like Jerry Sloan and there's also Nick Collison with OKC who got his jersey retired. Why does Kawhi coming to town and winning a chip automatically take that honor away from DeRozan?

    We can't retire everybody's numbers. There has to be a STANDARD. We don't want to be that franchise that retire everybody's numbers. Kawhi, VC and Lowry....these guys are all future hall of famers. I'm still not 100% sure about Lowry but I think he gets in. DeRozan has no chance of making the HOF. It sounds harsh but that's just the truth.

    When I think of DeRozan I think of his playoff failures. His last ever game as a Raptor he was so bad that he got benched in the 4th in an ELIMINATION game!

    Now, I know people will say 'but Kawhi only played here for 1 year' Kawhi BY FAR is the greatest talent to ever put on a Raptor uniform. It's not even close. AND he brought us a championship!! And the way he did it was spectacular. Kawhi is the easiest decision by far lol. You retire his number and you put a statue outside ACC.
    Mamba Mentality

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    • G__Deane wrote: View Post

      No argument here but I'd say that the recent Raptors chip win had 100X the effect of turning die hard hockey fans or casuals into Raptor fans....lots watched Vince.....EVERYONE watched the Raptors run. I've never seen anything like it; people at work who never 2atched sports period were asking me about the Raps chances, friends of mine who were hockey only, maybe some Jays were texting me during the games
      I remember back in the Philly series that went to game seven where Carter missed the shot at the end. Everyone I knew was watching and following that. It was taking headlines, it was talked about on TV a lot. It had the same vibe except the shot didn't go in and it all ended prematurely.

      Of course what just happened had a huge impact but that may not have happened without what came before and it doesn't erase what came before. Its all a growth process as a franchise.

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      • G__Deane wrote: View Post

        No argument here but I'd say that the recent Raptors chip win had 100X the effect of turning die hard hockey fans or casuals into Raptor fans....lots watched Vince.....EVERYONE watched the Raptors run. I've never seen anything like it; people at work who never 2atched sports period were asking me about the Raps chances, friends of mine who were hockey only, maybe some Jays were texting me during the games
        Nobody's arguing that the recent championship success has elevated Raptors basketball to stratospheric heights of popularity. What people are appreciating here is VC's popularity in the early make-or-break days, elevating Raptors basketball above freakin' curling in the local market and sustaining that through the Bosh/Bargnani dark ages. We take that for granted these days, but it wasn't always the case.

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        • The Great One wrote: View Post

          We can't retire everybody's numbers. There has to be a STANDARD. We don't want to be that franchise that retire everybody's numbers. Kawhi, VC and Lowry....these guys are all future hall of famers. I'm still not 100% sure about Lowry but I think he gets in. DeRozan has no chance of making the HOF. It sounds harsh but that's just the truth.

          When I think of DeRozan I think of his playoff failures. His last ever game as a Raptor he was so bad that he got benched in the 4th in an ELIMINATION game!

          Now, I know people will say 'but Kawhi only played here for 1 year' Kawhi BY FAR is the greatest talent to ever put on a Raptor uniform. It's not even close. AND he brought us a championship!! And the way he did it was spectacular. Kawhi is the easiest decision by far lol. You retire his number and you put a statue outside ACC.
          Again, I use your own example from your favorite franchise.... the Bulls. They retired Jerry Sloan's number & some guy named Doug Love. The other 2 are MJ & Pippen. Is that what you mean by a franchise that retires everybody's number? I never heard anybody complain about Sloan & Love (whoever he is).

          And then there's the Spurs: Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot & Bruce Bowen and some other guys I never heard of got their jerseys retired. That's a crappy organization with no standards, right there.

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          • The Great One wrote: View Post

            We can't retire everybody's numbers. There has to be a STANDARD. We don't want to be that franchise that retire everybody's numbers. Kawhi, VC and Lowry....these guys are all future hall of famers. I'm still not 100% sure about Lowry but I think he gets in. DeRozan has no chance of making the HOF. It sounds harsh but that's just the truth.

            When I think of DeRozan I think of his playoff failures. His last ever game as a Raptor he was so bad that he got benched in the 4th in an ELIMINATION game!

            Now, I know people will say 'but Kawhi only played here for 1 year' Kawhi BY FAR is the greatest talent to ever put on a Raptor uniform. It's not even close. AND he brought us a championship!! And the way he did it was spectacular. Kawhi is the easiest decision by far lol. You retire his number and you put a statue outside ACC.
            https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/retired-numbers

            I think you think its harder than it is. Plenty of non hall of famers. Of recent guys, we got DIkemebe Mutombo retired on multiple teams, Zach Randolph, Tony Allen, Nick Collison, Peja Stojakovic, Bruce Bowen, Avery Johnson

            Retiring jersey is to let the fans have a day of remembering a player they were fond of, and building up an alumni and history, and honoring a player. It looks good on a franchise to be welcoming. We are not the New York Yankees (who by the way have like 50 retired), but we do have a 25 year history with a banner and many division titles, and its time to start building up the rafters. There is no harm in letting Derozan in, but there is PR harm in slapping him in the face by putting Kawhi in for 1 year and not him.
            9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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            • This would be me if you try to put a Kawhi statue outside of ACC

              9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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              • Siakam is most likely going to get retired by Raptors too.
                Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                • Speaking of statues banners, jerseys, etc... ... Masai is obviously a lock. What TF is going on with his contract extension, btw? Isn't this supposed to be the time where it's being re-negotiated. Nurse too. I'm freakin' nervous about both those guys.

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                  • Kyle is 47th all time in assists. He has a shot at the top 20 depending on when he retires. He has a real shot at top 60 all time in scoring with an outside shot at the top 50. He also has a shot at top 50 all time in steals. He also has a chance to crack the top 10 all time for threes made, only he might be blocked by some active guys like Klay, Dame and Bron. Add in his championship and six all star games and I have to ask, what's a guy got to do to make the Hall? Not wear a Raptors jersey?

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                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      Kyle is 47th all time in assists. He has a shot at the top 20 depending on when he retires. He has a real shot at top 60 all time in scoring with an outside shot at the top 50. He also has a shot at top 50 all time in steals. He also has a chance to crack the top 10 all time for threes made, only he might be blocked by some active guys like Klay, Dame and Bron. Add in his championship and six all star games and I have to ask, what's a guy got to do to make the Hall? Not wear a Raptors jersey?
                      Chauncey Billups isn't in yet who imo is his closest comparable
                      9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                      • Apollo wrote: View Post

                        I remember back in the Philly series that went to game seven where Carter missed the shot at the end. Everyone I knew was watching and following that. It was taking headlines, it was talked about on TV a lot. It had the same vibe except the shot didn't go in and it all ended prematurely.

                        Of course what just happened had a huge impact but that may not have happened without what came before and it doesn't erase what came before. Its all a growth process as a franchise.
                        You were a new fan back then and just remembering the new-fan excitement. It was nothing compared to this last playoffs, sorry, not even close.

                        Vince was a buzz, a celebrity sighting, the chip was electric, people were talking about it at water coolers and gas pumps like never before. A huge multiple in Toronto watched this last season vs the Carter highlights. I had friends from BC to NB talking to me about the Raps this year. Most of them knew who Vince was back then and never watched a game. Vince made fringe fans interested. The Chip made non-fans book nights off work lol.

                        Not....even....close.....

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                        • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                          Chauncey Billups isn't in yet who imo is his closest comparable
                          Yup.. Kyle isn't getting in if Billups doesn't.

                          Very similar resumes. Billups doesn't have an Olympic gold, but does have a FIBA championship.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post

                            Nobody's arguing that the recent championship success has elevated Raptors basketball to stratospheric heights of popularity. What people are appreciating here is VC's popularity in the early make-or-break days, elevating Raptors basketball above freakin' curling in the local market and sustaining that through the Bosh/Bargnani dark ages. We take that for granted these days, but it wasn't always the case.
                            Yup, no one should deny how fun it was to watch Vince when he was in Toronto and elevated the Raps in the NBA landscape....til the end when he quit, faked injuries on the court, stopped trying and set the team back 5 years when he forced a bad trade and further legitimized Toronto as a backwater podunk that elite free agents (continue) to shun. Thanks Vince....

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                            • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                              Yup, no one should deny how fun it was to watch Vince when he was in Toronto and elevated the Raps in the NBA landscape....til the end when he quit, faked injuries on the court, stopped trying and set the team back 5 years when he forced a bad trade and further legitimized Toronto as a backwater podunk that elite free agents (continue) to shun. Thanks Vince....
                              He forced a trade. He didn't force a bad trade. That was GM's fault. He didn't set the team back 5 years. Toronto did that all on it's own with shit drafting.
                              Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                              • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                                https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/retired-numbers

                                I think you think its harder than it is. Plenty of non hall of famers. Of recent guys, we got DIkemebe Mutombo retired on multiple teams, Zach Randolph, Tony Allen, Nick Collison, Peja Stojakovic, Bruce Bowen, Avery Johnson

                                Retiring jersey is to let the fans have a day of remembering a player they were fond of, and building up an alumni and history, and honoring a player. It looks good on a franchise to be welcoming. We are not the New York Yankees (who by the way have like 50 retired), but we do have a 25 year history with a banner and many division titles, and its time to start building up the rafters. There is no harm in letting Derozan in, but there is PR harm in slapping him in the face by putting Kawhi in for 1 year and not him.
                                I think that's where a wall of fame makes sense over retiring numbers. More inclusive, a lower bar for outright excellence, more memories for fans. Vince makes our wall of fame, no issues there. I wouldn't retire his number and I'd prefer Lowry is first.
                                After the first blush of the Chip and "retire the number, give him the Key, put up a statue" I'd put Kawhi on the Raptor wall of fame too....two guys who chose to leave the Raps. Bosh, DeRozan too.

                                Retiring numbers need longevity plus playoff success. Kawhi fails on the former, Vince on the latter. I was for Kawhi's number retirement initially but I don't care what weak-ass decisions other teams make....

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