Vince Carter's Retirement

[S.R.]

Vince didn't save the Raptors from becoming the Grizzlies, let's stop with that. The Raptors have always had good attendance and strong support. During their worst drought, 2009-2014, 5 years without a playoff appearance and as few as 22 wins in a season (only 1 better than their expansion year), the Raptors varied between #10 to #19 in the league for attendance. They have never been bottom third for attendance, even at the worst of times. They've basically always had a potential market of about 30 million people, some NBA franchise are in very small American cities of a few hundred thousand. And sorry to Vancouver, but Toronto will always have an ability to draw a national audience that Vancouver just can't match. Some of it's even just time zone.

It's impossible to say if Wiggins etc. played basketball because of Vince, or if they were going to be ballers anyway and Vince was their guy because he was huge while they were kids. Correlation =/= causation and all that.

Yeah, Vince created new fans anecdotally, but even that I'm not sure has an objective measure? Were TV ratings up? Was franchise profitability/value up? Was merch up? Yes for the Vince years and Vince jerseys specifically, but a lot of that disappeared when Vince walked. If he created a new wave of Raptors fans, that should be measurable post-Vince vs pre-Vince. Over and above what you'd have for a maturing NBA expansion franchise. I haven't seen anything other than anecdotes to support the idea of a significantly expanded Raptors fanbase, but maybe there's something.

FWIW last year's Raptors were a bigger road draw than any of Vince's teams. Vince was a popularity supervnova per the narrative, but the Raptors peaked as a #5 road draw in the Vince years. Kawhi, the anti-superstar who is essentially Vince's opposite, led the Raptors to a #4 road draw last year while sitting out a quarter of the season.

I believe Vince had a positive impact for sure, I think the claim just lacks objective support and is prone to hyperbole.

[golden]

if we get a statue this should be it. With golden, trophy and all of the guys

Thanks, Mixx. I really appreciate the support, but if DeRozan isn't getting a statue, I'm not sure how much I deserve one.

[Apollo]

G__Deane wrote: View Post
You were a new fan back then and just remembering the new-fan excitement.



Just above, you yourself said you were converted to an NBA fans during Carter's run here:

"Carter exposed a lot of die hard hockey fans to basketball. He was arguably the greatest entertainer in the NBA during his time in Toronto. For a short time celebrities were showing up for Raptors games in Toronto almost like it were the Lakers. People thought he was going to be the next Jordan. It didn't pan out but some of those die hard hockey fans were converted (including yours truly). His impact on the culture in Canada cannot be denied. That doesn't mean he deserves a Raptors enshrinement but he does deserve a Canadian basketball honor for his contributions to the game in a short time."

So you don't think it's a fair assumption that your opinion of Vince and the excitement you experienced were tainted by your new-fan-ness? Tons of puck heads started watching then just as tons more watched this season. C'mon man, old heroes die hard lol

I watched a little basketball before Carter. It wasn't that it was new when he came on, it was that I got to watch him every game, something I could not do with any other NBA team back then. I couldn't get sucked in by the Bulls or the Blazers or the Sonics or the Sun or the Knicks. Except for the playoffs. Michael Jordan got me excited for 'new fan ness' . Carter was the closest thing then to Jordan and he played for the Raptors. So it's not how you describe and even if it were you'd still be wrong about his significance.

You admitted you don't forgive him, right? That's me asking for confirmation, not misquoting you. You don't suppose that influences anything else do you?

[Sonny]

First of all, who's disrespecting Lowry? I never said anything about Lowry other than Vince's number should be retired first. That's disrespectful?

Second, I'm going to say it again, Kawhi Leonard in ONE year did more for this franchise than DeRozan did in 9. You can bring up all of DeRozan's regular season stats all you want. Larry OB/FInals MVP/legendary Raptors moments > regular season stats.

With Kawhi, it's not just about jersey retirement. He also deserves to have a statue outside ACC.

[Sonny]

It's kinda funny to hear people 100% say Carter should be retired but arnt so sure about deboo.
demar had more success,was here longer, wanted to be mr Toronto.
Vince was the exact opposite. Didnt really have playoff success threw us under the bus and set us back a decade. Ya he was popular league wide that's his biggest accomplishment in Toronto.

I dont care either way if Carter goes up. But anyone who thinks demar isn't getting g his Jersey retired is delusional

Exactly. Lmao.

[G__Deane]

I watched a little basketball before Carter. It wasn't that it was new when he came on, it was that I got to watch him every game, something I could not do with any other NBA team back then. I couldn't get sucked in by the Bulls or the Blazers or the Sonics or the Sun or the Knicks. Except for the playoffs. Michael Jordan got me excited for 'new fan ness' . Carter was the closest thing then to Jordan and he played for the Raptors. So it's not how you describe and even if it were you'd still be wrong about his significance.

You admitted you don't forgive him, right? That's me asking for confirmation, not misquoting you. You don't suppose that influences anything else do you?

Forgive not forget.

I don't hate the guy, I legit didn't think about him for 1 second until games he came to town and the fawning began and then when they floated the idea of trading for him every post season when they knew a feel-good fake nostalgia thing might distract fans from yet another early round exit. That's behind us! That's beneath us!
I already said I'm fine with some sort of Raptor Wall of Fame along with a few other guys. I wouldn't even boo
He's been feted several times here in Toronto already. He's had his standing O. Enough.

I just don't believe he deserves to have his number retired.
- The way he quit/left
- Didn't accomplish a thing of real significance in the post season
- We don't retire jerseys for dunk contests or being exciting for a few years
- Majority of his journeyman career elsewhere

[The Great One]

You can use all the eye roll emojis in the world, deep inside you know I'm right lol. Kawhi has done more in 8 months than DeRozan did in his entire career in Toronto.

[KeonClark]

You can use all the eye roll emojis in the world, deep inside you know I'm right lol. Kawhi has done more in 8 months than DeRozan did in his entire career in Toronto.

There is no championship without the ground work laid by DeRozan and co for years. It was slow, steady build to get to that point.

the Raptors were lucky to have Kawhi, just as Kawhi was lucky to end up on a team with such culture, such good support players, who were one piece away from championship status. It was a mutually beneficial 1 year agreement.

[The Great One]

There is no championship without the ground work laid by DeRozan and co for years. It was slow, steady build to get to that point.

the Raptors were lucky to have Kawhi, just as Kawhi was lucky to end up on a team with such culture, such good support players, who were one piece away from championship status. It was a mutually beneficial 1 year agreement.

You mean LOWRY and co? we all know who the man was during those years, it was Lowry. Come on Keon, I thought you're a Lowry guy. DeRozan was the face of the franchise. But Lowry really was the man.

The Raptors probably would've had a better chance of beating the Cavs in 2018 if they didn't have DeRozan on their team. That 2018 Cavs team was bad. It took them 7 games to dispose the Pacers in the 1st round. The Pacers really should've won that series if not for that bad call on Oladipo. But anyways, the next round they easily swept the Raptors and DeRozan got benched in the 4th quarter of an elimination game! Can't happen if you're a great player.

[The Great One]

Also, from what I remember, the Raptors were down big in the 4th quarter of that game against the Cavs. Casey benched DeRozan, and Raptors all of a sudden made a huge run. DeRozan couldn't hit a shot the whole series, story of his playoff career. That was the game where they needed him to step up big because from what I remember, Lowry did not play in that game. I think Kyle got hurt in Game 2 or maybe Game 3. I don't remember Kyle playing in Game 4.

[MixxAOR]

If everything works out guys in the future might be even better and have more impact than Derozan. So by the time he retires his place in Raptors lore will look a lot different.

[Apollo]

The goal of a sports team is to win a championship. Saying DeRozan is more important to Toronto than Leonard is like saying Casey is more important to Toronto than Nurse. Casey did a lot of good work here but he didn't have what it takes to complete the goal and the same can be said for DeRozan. That's not to discredit what they did achieve but what they did achieve is secondary to the primary goal and so they can't hope to compare to Leonard and Nurse.

Same goes for Carter. Carter missed his game seven shot against Philly and that was the peak of his career. Leonard made his shot against Philly and the jury is out on where he's headed but he fulfilled the primary objective.

[golden]

The goal of a sports team is to win a championship. Saying DeRozan is more important to Toronto than Leonard is like saying Casey is more important to Toronto than Nurse. Casey did a lot of good work here but he didn't have what it takes to complete the goal and the same can be said for DeRozan. That's not to discredit what they did achieve but what they did achieve is secondary to the primary goal and so they can't hope to compare to Leonard and Nurse.

Same goes for Carter. Carter missed his game seven shot against Philly and that was the peak of his career. Leonard made his shot against Philly and the jury is out on where he's headed but he fulfilled the primary objective.

So only teams who have won championships can retire jerseys? Is that what you're getting at? Avery Johnson deserves his jersey retired more than Stockton and Malone?

[Apollo]

So only teams who have won championships can retire jerseys? Is that what you're getting at? Avery Johnson deserves his jersey retired more than Stockton and Malone?

No. No. No. Have any more questions, I'm liking this.

[Sonny]

We can't retire everybody's numbers. There has to be a STANDARD. We don't want to be that franchise that retire everybody's numbers. Kawhi, VC and Lowry....these guys are all future hall of famers. I'm still not 100% sure about Lowry but I think he gets in. DeRozan has no chance of making the HOF. It sounds harsh but that's just the truth.

So HOF or bust? should the Raptors retire T-Mac's number then? he's already in the HOF.