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Vince Carter's Retirement

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  • I was trying to think of a vince comparable. Someone who started their career with a team and brought them relevance who then left on bad terms forcing their way out of town. The type of player who will be a hall of Famer. They only person I could think of was Melo.
    So do you think the nuggets will retire Melos Jersey?
    To be the champs you got to beat the champs

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    • The Great One wrote: View Post

      This is how you make DeRozan look good.

      Let's look at the Raptors record before Kyle Lowry, shall we? I'm not going to include DeRozan's rookie year because that was Chris Bosh's team.

      "We got us" right?

      2010-2011 - 22-60
      2011-2012 - 23-43
      2012-2013 - 34-48

      79-151

      2013-2014 was Kyle Lowry's first full year with the Raptors as a starting PG. The Raptors that year finished 48-34, they made the playoffs, played Brooklyn in the 1st round and the rest is history.

      You can't compare DeRozan to Vince. DeRozan was Robin to Kyle Lowry's Batman. Vince was Batman since his first game in TO.



      I think I they were 1A and 1B. We as fans all know Lowry was the straw that stirred the drink. But I dont know of lowry would have developed into the leader he is without demar. Casey and masai both helped but the Lowry/demar tandem together I think helped both of then lead a locker room.
      Lowry was the asshole demand the best give his body for the team. Demar was laid back supportive and would generally have the collective to take the last shot. I think kyle himself would admit that the 2 of them both helped each other become what they eventually did
      To be the champs you got to beat the champs

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      • bertarapsfan wrote: View Post
        I was trying to think of a vince comparable. Someone who started their career with a team and brought them relevance who then left on bad terms forcing their way out of town. The type of player who will be a hall of Famer. They only person I could think of was Melo.
        So do you think the nuggets will retire Melos Jersey?
        Melo wants it to happen.. not sure if the Nuggets would do it.
        https://sports.yahoo.com/carmelo-ant...225432745.html

        Jokic wears his number and is probably more worthy.


        Nuggets have a long history and have a few retired jerseys already too though. So they have a bar set unlike the Raptors. I don't think they do it.

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        • bertarapsfan wrote: View Post
          I was trying to think of a vince comparable. Someone who started their career with a team and brought them relevance who then left on bad terms forcing their way out of town. The type of player who will be a hall of Famer. They only person I could think of was Melo.
          So do you think the nuggets will retire Melos Jersey?
          Durant in OKC is similar and will be an interesting test case. AD in NO has some similarities to Vince in TO. Boogie in Sacto.
          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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          • S.R. wrote: View Post

            Durant in OKC is similar and will be an interesting test case. AD in NO has some similarities to Vince in TO. Boogie in Sacto.
            Durant played until his contract expired. Different situation. Melo's was an extend and sign.. I think it's closer since he wanted out badly.

            I think the closest in terms of how he left and what he brought to the team early on is Dwight Howard in Orlando. Dwight got his team to the finals and was considered an MVP caliber player before landing in LA.

            Would be really curious to see if Orlando retires Dwight's number. He too sort of just became a journey man / role player to finish his career. But might still make the Hall for his earlier accomplishments.

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            • planetmars wrote: View Post

              Durant played until his contract expired. Different situation. Melo's was an extend and sign.. I think it's closer since he wanted out badly.

              I think the closest in terms of how he left and what he brought to the team early on is Dwight Howard in Orlando. Dwight got his team to the finals and was considered an MVP caliber player before landing in LA.

              Would be really curious to see if Orlando retires Dwight's number. He too sort of just became a journey man / role player to finish his career. But might still make the Hall for his earlier accomplishments.
              Ya Dwight is a good example. I forgot Jokic has 15 so ya he would probably get the honour over melo if his career continues on the path he is on right now.
              Dwight is a good comparable too he did have more sucess bringing that Magic team to the finals is quite a feat. He is an easy HOF he was sooo good in the early part of his career what did he have like 3 DPOY? People forget about how dominant he was since he was such a goofball a locker room problem ever since leaving Orlando.
              To be the champs you got to beat the champs

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              • planetmars wrote: View Post

                Durant played until his contract expired. Different situation. Melo's was an extend and sign.. I think it's closer since he wanted out badly.

                I think the closest in terms of how he left and what he brought to the team early on is Dwight Howard in Orlando. Dwight got his team to the finals and was considered an MVP caliber player before landing in LA.

                Would be really curious to see if Orlando retires Dwight's number. He too sort of just became a journey man / role player to finish his career. But might still make the Hall for his earlier accomplishments.
                OKC fans and Kevin Durant are not on good terms, that's the similarity.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                • S.R. wrote: View Post

                  OKC fans and Kevin Durant are not on good terms, that's the similarity.
                  I think K.D is an all time great so in the end that will probably trump all. I think when its all said and done they will realize they drafted and helped develop of the best players ever on the team and eventually 35 will be in the rafters in OKC.
                  To be the champs you got to beat the champs

                  Comment


                  • S.R. wrote: View Post

                    Durant in OKC is similar and will be an interesting test case. AD in NO has some similarities to Vince in TO. Boogie in Sacto.
                    Well there's zero way Melo gets his his number retired in Jersey, Durant gets retired in OKC or Boogie in GS. AD in NO, no chance.
                    None of them.

                    There was more of an argument for Vince when it was a feel good story for a franchise desperate for recognition "we had a star here once" .... we don't need that fake nostalgia, try to get the fans to forget how bad we are any more, we won a chip!

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                    • bertarapsfan wrote: View Post
                      I think I they were 1A and 1B. We as fans all know Lowry was the straw that stirred the drink. But I dont know of lowry would have developed into the leader he is without demar. Casey and masai both helped but the Lowry/demar tandem together I think helped both of then lead a locker room.
                      Lowry was the asshole demand the best give his body for the team. Demar was laid back supportive and would generally have the collective to take the last shot. I think kyle himself would admit that the 2 of them both helped each other become what they eventually did
                      I think DeRozan was just in the right place at the right time. He was the lottery pick, there was a lot of hype around him after the draft. The Raptors desperately wanted him to be their next star, they wanted him to be the next VC so bad even though he didn't have the raw talent of a VC(not even close). So they built(or forced) their offense around him, it worked because the Raptors have Lowry and Masai. But what if the Raptors never traded for Lowry?

                      Look at the Spurs this year with DeRozan as "the man" 27-36. 11th place in the West. He's never made the all star team in his 2 years in San Antonio.

                      If the Raptors focused more on Terrence Ross' development and used him as 1B instead of DeMar, I think they would've been just as good if not better. And I think Ross would have an all star appearance on his resume.

                      So anyway, I can't believe that a "Lowry hater" like myself is now defending Kyle. But I like I always say here, I'm going to call it like it is.
                      Mamba Mentality

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                      • The Great One wrote: View Post

                        If the Raptors focused more on Terrence Ross' development and used him as 1B instead of DeMar, I think they would've been just as good if not better. And I think Ross would have an all star appearance on his resume.
                        In what way did they withhold resources in developing Ross? I don't remember ever hearing this, it's news to me.

                        How did Fred and Pascal develop so much last year without being 1B? I would guess raw talent, very hard work and IQ.

                        Comment


                        • bertarapsfan wrote: View Post
                          I think I they were 1A and 1B. We as fans all know Lowry was the straw that stirred the drink. But I dont know of lowry would have developed into the leader he is without demar. Casey and masai both helped but the Lowry/demar tandem together I think helped both of then lead a locker room.
                          Lowry was the asshole demand the best give his body for the team. Demar was laid back supportive and would generally have the collective to take the last shot. I think kyle himself would admit that the 2 of them both helped each other become what they eventually did
                          This is exceedingly generous to DeMar. Couldn't we, with exactly the same amount of evidence (that is, literally none), argue that Lowry might have developed into a leader faster without DeMar's presence?

                          And one player helping another develop does not change who was responsible, ultimately, for the team's successes. The whole point of the comparison was Vince vs DeMar. Which is hilarious on the face of it, the reason being that you give Vince a Kyle freaking Lowry and that comparison would look very different (never mind that if the team had given him a Kyle Lowry the entire Vince story would likely be very different).
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • I think there's a pretty good chance Lowry didn't stay if DeMar wasn't here, both to be his buddy and to add some stability to the whole situation. DeMar's attitude did help change the culture/atmosphere around the team, even if he wasn't the only one responsible for that (Tim L > Masai was huge).

                            One of the biggest "Ouch!" observations I heard was the best thing DeMar ever did for Toronto was being good enough to trade for Kawhi. Hurts but some truth there, for sure. He was enough of an asset to swing the Kawhi deal but also the type of player that the team really didn't miss on the court - at all - after the trade. Win-win for the Raptors.
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • This pandemic is so damn long we've spent pages on Vince and DeMar debates. What year is this? Next up: Andrea Bargnani's 13 game streak - a sign of things to come? Let's hope so, Bosh needs help!
                              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                              • DanH wrote: View Post

                                This is exceedingly generous to DeMar. Couldn't we, with exactly the same amount of evidence (that is, literally none), argue that Lowry might have developed into a leader faster without DeMar's presence?

                                And one player helping another develop does not change who was responsible, ultimately, for the team's successes. The whole point of the comparison was Vince vs DeMar. Which is hilarious on the face of it, the reason being that you give Vince a Kyle freaking Lowry and that comparison would look very different (never mind that if the team had given him a Kyle Lowry the entire Vince story would likely be very different).
                                Considering lowry had a history of being difficult to work with, had spat with head coaches and was just planning on coming playing his contract out and leaving i think its fair to say his leadership was forged during the casey-demar years. How much of that has to do with masai "talk" can be debated. Not to mention even when we were winning Kyle was still looking for ways to get himself to San Antino and Utah in F.A. I just think you cant tell Lowry story without Demars and you cant tell Demars without Lowry and that Duo was far more impactful to winning then Vince.

                                Maybe if Lowry and Vince were together they both just say fuck this mickey mouse franchise and both leave together.
                                To be the champs you got to beat the champs

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