Vince Carter's Retirement

[Apollo]

Who would you take at age 25, Vince or Pascal?

[Apollo]

Considering lowry had a history of being difficult to work with, had spat with head coaches and was just planning on coming playing his contract out and leaving i think its fair to say his leadership was forged during the casey-demar years. How much of that has to do with masai "talk" can be debated. Not to mention even when we were winning Kyle was still looking for ways to get himself to San Antino and Utah in F.A. I just think you cant tell Lowry story without Demars and you cant tell Demars without Lowry and that Duo was far more impactful to winning then Vince.

Maybe if Lowry and Vince were together they both just say fuck this mickey mouse franchise and both leave together.

Kyle felt he wasn't getting a fair chance in Houston if I remember correctly. Right or wrong it worked out well from the Raptors that it happened.

[DanH]

Considering lowry had a history of being difficult to work with, had spat with head coaches and was just planning on coming playing his contract out and leaving i think its fair to say his leadership was forged during the casey-demar years. How much of that has to do with masai "talk" can be debated. Not to mention even when we were winning Kyle was still looking for ways to get himself to San Antino and Utah in F.A. I just think you cant tell Lowry story without Demars and you cant tell Demars without Lowry and that Duo was far more impactful to winning then Vince.

Maybe if Lowry and Vince were together they both just say fuck this mickey mouse franchise and both leave together.

Let's say we take everything you say here as fact. That Kyle could never have become the great player who can carry a team to success without DeMar (let's ignore that he always showed statistically that he had the talent, and also assume that it would have been impossible for him to develop as a person without DeMar). That Vince would be forcing his way out of town while a Kyle Lowry-type is helping him to the ECF or beyond every season despite his issues with the franchise being clearly based in the front office's ineptitude.

Let's assume that is all true. It doesn't change the fact that DeMar was not the player who was dragging the team to success. In that scenario he was a great leader, indispensable friend, and mediocre-to-good player enjoying team success because of the actual star player of the team.

We don't need to cut DeMar out of the story. We need to live in this world where DeMar is part of Lowry's story, not the fictional one where we attribute the team's record during Lowry's tenure to DeMar, pretending that DeMar was the guy winning basketball games. This stretch of success has not been the DeMar DeRozan Raptors. They are the Kyle Lowry Raptors.

[bertarapsfan]

Let's say we take everything you say here as fact. That Kyle could never have become the great player who can carry a team to success without DeMar (let's ignore that he always showed statistically that he had the talent, and also assume that it would have been impossible for him to develop as a person without DeMar). That Vince would be forcing his way out of town while a Kyle Lowry-type is helping him to the ECF or beyond every season despite his issues with the franchise being clearly based in the front office's ineptitude.

Let's assume that is all true. It doesn't change the fact that DeMar was not the player who was dragging the team to success. In that scenario he was a great leader, indispensable friend, and mediocre-to-good player enjoying team success because of the actual star player of the team.

We don't need to cut DeMar out of the story. We need to live in this world where DeMar is part of Lowry's story, not the fictional one where we attribute the team's record during Lowry's tenure to DeMar, pretending that DeMar was the guy winning basketball games. This stretch of success has not been the DeMar DeRozan Raptors. They are the Kyle Lowry Raptors.

I never was discounting Kyle skill, nor his ability to be the guy which i know he was and i know the raptors arn't the same team with say Derozen and another P.G. I'm talking about that team after the gay trade up until we began a perinial top 2-3 team in the east. I think we are starting to minimize Demars role in that, his role in being the guy to help lowry. Neither guy was ready to be the number 1 guy that first game in L.A after Rudy left town. They both were exactly where they needed to be to be successful in that moment.

Let me ask you what you think happens if Demar is shipped out and its now a Kyle, Rudy lead team. Does Rudy let himself and kyle be the 1A 1B? Does kyle become the raptors legend he does playing with Rudy? Does rudy come into the locker room and say well fuck it their blowing this thing up put your houses on the market or does he say we out here like Micheal phelps?
Le

[planetmars]

Who would you take at age 25, Vince or Pascal?

That one's easy.. Vince. Vince was a stud / special player after his 2000-2001 season (at age 24). And put up slightly better numbers in his 4th season (when he was 25) than Pascal in his 4th season (so this season) also at 25. But the numbers are actually really close. Vince blows him away in his first 3 seasons though. Pascal might get better (fingers crossed). We know Carter got worse.

So if you use hindsight into the equation I would take Pascal. Without hindsight I take Carter but that's because I'm also taking his first 3 seasons and not just his 4th with me. With Pascal I'm just really taking 2 seasons, and in 1 of those he was like the 3rd best player on the team.

But good question.

[DanH]

I never was discounting Kyle skill, nor his ability to be the guy which i know he was and i know the raptors arn't the same team with say Derozen and another P.G. I'm talking about that team after the gay trade up until we began a perinial top 2-3 team in the east. I think we are starting to minimize Demars role in that, his role in being the guy to help lowry. Neither guy was ready to be the number 1 guy that first game in L.A after Rudy left town. They both were exactly where they needed to be to be successful in that moment.

Let me ask you what you think happens if Demar is shipped out and its now a Kyle, Rudy lead team. Does Rudy let himself and kyle be the 1A 1B? Does kyle become the raptors legend he does playing with Rudy? Does rudy come into the locker room and say well fuck it their blowing this thing up put your houses on the market or does he say we out here like Micheal phelps?
Le

Wait, what? Reminder, this is the context of this discussion:

Demar record in T.O-382-340, 5 playoff berths, 4 series wins
Vince 214-246, 3 Playoff berths, 1 series win

It's a complete misrepresentation of the two players to show the team success to compare them. Because Vince dragged the team to what success they had. DeMar's greatest contribution to the team was, by your argument, making it possible for Lowry to improve himself to the point where Lowry could drag DeMar to the success they had.

Yes, DeMar was crucial to the success of this team (as were, like, so many other people). No, laying out those records like that is NOT an honest argument.

[G__Deane]

This pandemic is so damn long we've spent pages on Vince and DeMar debates. What year is this? Next up: Andrea Bargnani's 13 game streak - a sign of things to come? Let's hope so, Bosh needs help!

Bargs was bizarre.

From the unbelievable drafting of him first overall (wasn't his fault though) to hoping he was just a bit slow developing as a soft 7 footer so being just incredulous at how dopey and sleepy the looked month after month. I remember posting so often how he needed to find some Italian fire becuase he looked like he was just happy to be there and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. He needed to spend an off season with the Italian National soccer team, not the basketball program .... that draft stud was a dud .... but better than Hoffa the "Brazilian Beast" at 8th overall lol

[bertarapsfan]

The records was Great one asked who had a bigger impact in T.O.
I said vince had a bigger impact on basketball culture
While Demar had a bigger impact on a winning in the city.

I know alot of people romanticize Vince and look back fondly on his peak, and maybe some people will do the same thing for Blake griffin in LA.
But it is what it is vince was pretty good for 3 season, won a playoff series almost won another then stabbed the franchise in the back on the way out.

Demar worked on his game year after year never had anywhere close to the raw skill as Vince but accomplished more as a team. And always put on for the city making it a decent option for player like Lowry to stick around. And helping create a program that was 1 piece away from a title even if that piece meant him walking out the door.

[G__Deane]

I think K.D is an all time great so in the end that will probably trump all. I think when its all said and done they will realize they drafted and helped develop of the best players ever on the team and eventually 35 will be in the rafters in OKC.

Wait, what? You don't retire a jersey because you drafted an all time great that played most of his career and all of his biggest accomplishments elsewhere....by that metric, Golden State should retire Vince's jersey since they drafted him

Uh-uh, no way, zero chance does OKC retire Durant's number. That would actually be pathetic

[G__Deane]

Who would you take at age 25, Vince or Pascal?

I assume you asking as if Vince stayed with the Raps?

At 25, Vince still had 7-8 decent to good seasons left in him (not counting the disaster (under 16 PPG and 3 AST) season where he quit on the team in Toronto). Pascal has a lot less miles on him at the stage and his ceiling is unknown and I like to think he'll stay in Toronto for more than 3 more years so I'll take Pascal.

Spicy also already has something that Vince doesn't; a Championship ring instead of the journeyman participation ribbon....

[bertarapsfan]

Wait, what? You don't retire a jersey because you drafted an all time great that played most of his career and all of his biggest accomplishments elsewhere....by that metric, Golden State should retire Vince's jersey since they drafted him

Uh-uh, no way, zero chance does OKC retire Durant's number. That would actually be pathetic

He won his only MVP in OKC. He made the finals and was flirting with the finals again. He was there for 9 years not a cup of coffee. Even if he plays 6 more season with another team it will still be 50/50.
Time heals all wound although i do assume they will make sure they do westbrook first.
K.D one of the guys were he get his jersey hung in every place he plays

[The Great One]

In what way did they withhold resources in developing Ross? I don't remember ever hearing this, it's news to me.

How did Fred and Pascal develop so much last year without being 1B? I would guess raw talent, very hard work and IQ.

Terrence Ross could've been a whole lot more than just a catch and shoot guy. He could've been a Zach LaVine or Caris LeVert type of player. He has that kind of talent. But the Raptors needed 3pt shooters to compliment DeRozan's game because the offense was built around DeMar, so the Raptors developed Ross as a catch and shoot/3D type of player. I think DeMar also hindered JV's development. JV could've been a lot more than just an energy big.

If DeRozan was still here, no way Siakam would develop into the player that he is now. He'd probably be a catch and shoot stretch 4 or just an energy guy like he was before the Kawhi trade.

[G__Deane]

Terrence Ross could've been a whole lot more than just a catch and shoot guy. He could've been a Zach LaVine or Caris LeVert type of player. He has that kind of talent. But the Raptors needed 3pt shooters to compliment DeRozan's game because the offense was built around DeMar, so the Raptors developed Ross as a catch and shoot/3D type of player. I think DeMar also hindered JV's development. JV could've been a lot more than just an energy big.

If DeRozan was still here, no way Siakam would develop into the player that he is now. He'd probably be a catch and shoot stretch 4 or just an energy guy like he was before the Kawhi trade.

Casey hindered JV's development far more. Dude would be 18 and 8 after 3 quarters and Casey would bench him .....

[DanH]

The records was Great one asked who had a bigger impact in T.O.
I said vince had a bigger impact on basketball culture
While Demar had a bigger impact on a winning in the city.

I know alot of people romanticize Vince and look back fondly on his peak, and maybe some people will do the same thing for Blake griffin in LA.
But it is what it is vince was pretty good for 3 season, won a playoff series almost won another then stabbed the franchise in the back on the way out.

Demar worked on his game year after year never had anywhere close to the raw skill as Vince but accomplished more as a team. And always put on for the city making it a decent option for player like Lowry to stick around. And helping create a program that was 1 piece away from a title even if that piece meant him walking out the door.

Again, though, it's silly to ascribe that winning as a "DeMar" impact. Everything Vince managed here he basically did by himself.

DeMar contributed to a successful team. So too did Patrick Patterson. We shouldn't be arguing whether Pat had a bigger impact in Toronto than Vince either, that would also be a silly stance.

And we shouldn't overlook that whatever work DeMar put into the program (and it was a lot), being one piece away from the title didn't cause him to coincidentally walk out the door - it was necessary that he be out the door for the team to be one piece away. He held the team back as much as he helped it.

[bertarapsfan]

Again, though, it's silly to ascribe that winning as a "DeMar" impact. Everything Vince managed here he basically did by himself.

DeMar contributed to a successful team. So too did Patrick Patterson. We shouldn't be arguing whether Pat had a bigger impact in Toronto than Vince either, that would also be a silly stance.

And we shouldn't overlook that whatever work DeMar put into the program (and it was a lot), being one piece away from the title didn't cause him to coincidentally walk out the door - it was necessary that he be out the door for the team to be one piece away. He held the team back as much as he helped it.

So do you think if Rudy and Demar swapped places in the trade we have a similar outcome for our franchise?