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GAME #1 : Toronto Raptors 94 - Houston Rockets 83

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  • G__Deane
    replied
    An under rated genius (unless your team has been there) of Masai has been the demonstrated ability to avoid the long term albatross contract; the one that you'd do anything to take back or offload. That's my fear in any of these potentially pay-for-past-performance scenarios where a player can fall off the cliff. In a salary cap world, it's also why I'd avoid these 30-40M contracts for anything less than true A-listers if possible.

    Nothing worse than Management saying a bad contract or two is stopping them from signing player X who could help you

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Sure, but Ibaka seems to be getting better after re-inventing himself as a stretch 5 with rim protection. With the championship pedigree and great teammate reputation, he'll be in demand for at least a few years, barring injury.
    I have far less confidence in that than you seem to.

    Combine that with what will likely be a league wide cap crunch for a few seasons, and being able to move him for little to no salary back (as would be needed) seems like anything but a safe bet.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    In past off-seasons, we've seen star players pick from teams that are capable of those moves.

    Having a market in summer 2020 does not mean you have a market in summer 2021.
    Sure, but Ibaka seems to be getting better after re-inventing himself as a stretch 5 with rim protection. With the championship pedigree and great teammate reputation, he'll be in demand for at least a few years, barring injury.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    If there's a market for Serge (which there undoubtedly is), then there shouldn't be a huge problem offering term, because that means he's a tradeable commodity. He'd be a perfect fit for the Rockets and Nets, IMO. And for the acquiring team, he's probably a better trade commodity if he's got a few years left on his contract.

    In past off-seasons, we've seen that if a star player truly wants to go to a specific team, they always seem to be able to unload whatever contract it takes to make it work or figure out some creative multi-team sign & trades.
    In past off-seasons, we've seen star players pick from teams that are capable of those moves.

    Having a market in summer 2020 does not mean you have a market in summer 2021.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    Repeating doesn't change much. Still have to plan for future success. You obviously try to bring back as much of the team as possible for next season - which is already plan A, but with the understanding that Serge is just very likely to price himself out of that "possible" group. C'est la vie. Maybe the difference is in what one year deals you offer - maybe you happily go deep into the tax for that season, even at risk of future planning, so you offer a one year max salary to Serge to get everyone to stay. But you still don't offer term.

    For the second question, I agree, who plays C moving forward is a question (Norm being in the core and TD not in it are both wrong IMO, but still, point remains). And that question needs an answer. The one thing I'm quite confident of is that if we are planning the long term, neither Serge nor Marc is the answer. I do think Ujiri is quite capable of finding someone better in the draft, maybe not in year one but two, three years from now? Heck yes. And Marc may well be affordable on short term deals as a veteran presence/big C to cushion any prospect they draft. But if not there are always vet C's floating around for relatively cheap. Heck, for all we know, it ends up being a C they grab in that 2021 FA period. Of course there is also the option they trade for a relatively stable experienced C with a fairly affordable deal who projects to maintain performance better than Serge (and Serge as a C who you can pick and choose when to shield with Marc vs Serge as your primary C option are two very different Serges) - maybe that's a Powell trade (he's likely not going to be worth his market in 2021), maybe something else. Point is, there are a lot of avenues to explore before settling on screwing their one window to add real talent to the current projected core in order to keep a mediocre big man.
    If there's a market for Serge (which there undoubtedly is), then there shouldn't be a huge problem offering term, because that means he's a tradeable commodity. He'd be a perfect fit for the Rockets and Nets, IMO. And for the acquiring team, he's probably a better trade commodity if he's got a few years left on his contract.

    In past off-seasons, we've seen that if a star player truly wants to go to a specific team, they always seem to be able to unload whatever contract it takes to make it work or figure out some creative multi-team sign & trades.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Demographic Shift wrote: View Post

    Thats a shit tonne of what ifs in that outline.

    So heres a couple of What ifs back...
    What if ..

    The Raps repeat?
    Do you roll it back ? If you do ... do you cement your standing as a destination franchise by taking care of the guys that got you to the top of the heap twice ?
    If you don't bring the band back.. do you then look small town cheap ? Theres more to running a franchise than being on, or around, or under the cap.

    The Raps new core going forward is .. Pascal, OG, Fred, Norm.
    As far as I can see none of those guys play at the 5 so why not Serge on a three year deal ? If you believe in that core then you can't give them a non dollar store guy to play in the middle. Serge gets bonus points for a good locker room guy along. Its not like they are going to find anyone better on the FA market or in the draft and its out of character for Ujiri to bail on the development curve for the guys deemed to be the new core before this years draft. h

    Floors yours... remember .. your running a franchise
    Repeating doesn't change much. Still have to plan for future success. You obviously try to bring back as much of the team as possible for next season - which is already plan A, but with the understanding that Serge is just very likely to price himself out of that "possible" group. C'est la vie. Maybe the difference is in what one year deals you offer - maybe you happily go deep into the tax for that season, even at risk of future planning, so you offer a one year max salary to Serge to get everyone to stay. But you still don't offer term.

    For the second question, I agree, who plays C moving forward is a question (Norm being in the core and TD not in it are both wrong IMO, but still, point remains). And that question needs an answer. The one thing I'm quite confident of is that if we are planning the long term, neither Serge nor Marc is the answer. I do think Ujiri is quite capable of finding someone better in the draft, maybe not in year one but two, three years from now? Heck yes. And Marc may well be affordable on short term deals as a veteran presence/big C to cushion any prospect they draft. But if not there are always vet C's floating around for relatively cheap. Heck, for all we know, it ends up being a C they grab in that 2021 FA period. Of course there is also the option they trade for a relatively stable experienced C with a fairly affordable deal who projects to maintain performance better than Serge (and Serge as a C who you can pick and choose when to shield with Marc vs Serge as your primary C option are two very different Serges) - maybe that's a Powell trade (he's likely not going to be worth his market in 2021), maybe something else. Point is, there are a lot of avenues to explore before settling on screwing their one window to add real talent to the current projected core in order to keep a mediocre big man.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    Demographic Shift wrote: View Post

    Thats a shit tonne of what ifs in that outline.

    So heres a couple of What ifs back...
    What if ..

    The Raps repeat?
    Do you roll it back ? If you do ... do you cement your standing as a destination franchise by taking care of the guys that got you to the top of the heap twice ?
    If you don't bring the band back.. do you then look small town cheap ? Theres more to running a franchise than being on, or around, or under the cap.

    The Raps new core going forward is .. Pascal, OG, Fred, Norm.
    As far as I can see none of those guys play at the 5 so why not Serge on a three year deal ? If you believe in that core then you can't give them a non dollar store guy to play in the middle. Serge gets bonus points for a good locker room guy along. Its not like they are going to find anyone better on the FA market or in the draft and its out of character for Ujiri to bail on the development curve for the guys deemed to be the new core before this years draft. h

    Floors yours... remember .. your running a franchise
    I think the underlying assumption is that there's always something better out there in trade or FA. If Serge is the best that's out there, of course you bring him back....but not at all costs. It's not like he's bad or anything, I just don't want to see albatross contracts going out to reward Marc, Serge .... or even Kyle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Demographic Shift
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    I'd be surprised if there was a rich deal with term for Gasol on the market given his age and low production. Serge will absolutely have a market. If Gasol has an offer with term, it's likely an MLE type deal for 2-3 years - in which case the Raps would be smart to throw 20M at him for one season, see if that's enough to keep him around.

    There is no scenario where I give either guy 2+ years (assuming they are making significant dollars, which they will be). Even if Giannis signs his extension, the team likely still targets a talent upgrade with their one year window of opportunity before their core needs to get paid (OG, Davis, alongside FVV, Pascal). Now, they'll still want to have a contingency in place for that summer if they swing and miss in that window, so will let Lowry expire that summer, and hope to have one of the vet C's expiring then too (almost certainly Marc), so they can pivot to re-signing those guys if their plans are for naught.
    Thats a shit tonne of what ifs in that outline.

    So heres a couple of What ifs back...
    What if ..

    The Raps repeat?
    Do you roll it back ? If you do ... do you cement your standing as a destination franchise by taking care of the guys that got you to the top of the heap twice ?
    If you don't bring the band back.. do you then look small town cheap ? Theres more to running a franchise than being on, or around, or under the cap.

    The Raps new core going forward is .. Pascal, OG, Fred, Norm.
    As far as I can see none of those guys play at the 5 so why not Serge on a three year deal ? If you believe in that core then you can't give them a non dollar store guy to play in the middle. Serge gets bonus points for a good locker room guy along. Its not like they are going to find anyone better on the FA market or in the draft and its out of character for Ujiri to bail on the development curve for the guys deemed to be the new core before this years draft. h

    Floors yours... remember .. your running a franchise

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    I'd be surprised if there was a rich deal with term for Gasol on the market given his age and low production. Serge will absolutely have a market. If Gasol has an offer with term, it's likely an MLE type deal for 2-3 years - in which case the Raps would be smart to throw 20M at him for one season, see if that's enough to keep him around.

    There is no scenario where I give either guy 2+ years (assuming they are making significant dollars, which they will be). Even if Giannis signs his extension, the team likely still targets a talent upgrade with their one year window of opportunity before their core needs to get paid (OG, Davis, alongside FVV, Pascal). Now, they'll still want to have a contingency in place for that summer if they swing and miss in that window, so will let Lowry expire that summer, and hope to have one of the vet C's expiring then too (almost certainly Marc), so they can pivot to re-signing those guys if their plans are for naught.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    With rings now, I think both Marc and Serge will get offers for more than 1 year deals in the league. Horford got a 4 year contract from Philly for example. These are two centers that can stretch the floor. In Marc's case he makes others better. In Serge's case we know he's a really good locker room guy that can still play in this era very well.

    I don't see why teams don't give them at least 3 year deals. For Marc it's riskier since he was hurt a lot this season, but everyone saw what he did against Vucevic, Embiid and Giannis in the playoffs last year. Everyone also saw how much Marc lost during the break. If Marc wants term he might get it.

    What can hurt them is the salary cap.. but I'm thinking the league will approve a cap smoothing this time around. The players will want that.. especially all the guys becoming free agents in 2021.

    The first day of free agency is when Giannis decides on the super max extension. My guess is if he signs that, we're bringing everyone back. If Giannis decides to wait, we're going to have a much different looking team next season or Masai/Bobby do their magic and welcomes everyone back on 1 year deals.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    Of course not, the team shouldn’t consider giving either player term. The difference is Serge will certainly get term on the market, while Marc might be available on a one year overpay.
    Gotcha.
    I have read some want to give one of the other a longer term deal. Regretfully, I just couldn't do either.
    Would do a 1+ team option for Marc and for Serge, maybe 2+ max

    I don't think Marc will see much in terms of offers and would very likely want to stay here. Serge may get more interest if teams believe his birth certificate for some reason.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jclaw
    replied
    007 wrote: View Post
    Hey Mixx, we need a new game thread!
    we don't need much...it's only preseason. Just toss up a gif of Melo's game winner to get out blood boiling and call it a day

    Leave a comment:


  • 007
    replied
    Hey Mixx, we need a new game thread!

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    I'm not sure what the alternative is. You may disagree but I wouldn't give marc extended term either.
    Of course not, the team shouldn’t consider giving either player term. The difference is Serge will certainly get term on the market, while Marc might be available on a one year overpay.

    Leave a comment:

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