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  • #31
    Axel wrote: View Post
    You continue to completely miss the point. Best Raptor by position doesn't need to be qualified against any players who played for other teams. It doesn't matter that the Raps haven't had a star PG or C yet. Who's the best they've had is the question.

    Yes, it would be nice if the Raps had more history and more great players but pining for a better history is useless. Our history belongs to us, both the good and bad. Reflect on it, accept it and answer the OP question without all this BS that isn't relevant.
    BS or not, I guess I just equate greatness and best together.

    Mostly, I came here for the initial question that caught my attention .... "name the best raptors of all time". It's a topic that is great to debate, especially when the discussion comes to Vince Carter. Suffice to say, my only input into this discussion is how I agree on the Bosh and Carter choices. With respect to Raptor history, and some questionable names, I simply see the combined question as an oxymoron. And with that, some of the seats will remain unfilled for me.

    As to pining for a better history - that statement takes my post out of context. Personally, I'm more apt to let it happen as it does, without sounding overtly philosophical.

    .

    Maybe I can ask you a question, that is somewhat relative to this thread, from a forecast perspective (as opposed to hindsight).

    If the dream opportunity for a Canadian to achieve stardom and do it with the Raptors (time not withstanding) seemed destined to become reality, who would you be prepared to offer up if you could start that scenario much sooner (like right now). That's assuming you believe Wiggins has the ability to be a Star - presumptuous that I may be.
    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:14 PM.

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    • #32
      Hakeem, not while on the Raptors but he is by far the best player to have ever played in Toronto.

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      • #33
        RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
        BS or not, I guess I just equate greatness and best together.

        Mostly, I came here for the initial question that caught my attention .... "name the best raptors of all time". It's a topic that is great to debate, especially when the discussion comes to Vince Carter. Suffice to say, my only input into this discussion is how I agree on the Bosh and Carter choices. With respect to Raptor history, and some questionable names, I simply see the combined question as an oxymoron. And with that, some of the seats will remain unfilled for me.

        As to pining for a better history - that statement takes my post out of context. Personally, I'm more apt to let it happen as it does, without sounding overtly philosophical.

        .

        Maybe I can ask you a question, that is somewhat relative to this thread, from a forecast perspective (as opposed to hindsight).

        If the dream opportunity for a Canadian to achieve stardom and do it with the Raptors (time not withstanding) seemed destined to become reality, who would you be prepared to offer up if you could start that scenario much sooner (like right now). That's assuming you believe Wiggins has the ability to be a Star - presumptuous that I may be.
        .
        Well then you're just plain wrong. Best and greatness aren't the same thing. There is no oxymoron. When someone asks, what's the best way to die; it has nothing to do with greatness but rather the highest attributable choice from within the finite choices available. You can choose the best without it being great.

        Your response discredits the contributions from players, who while never attaining star status or greatness, still deserve recognition as the best to play that position in our history. Antonio Davis, Mo Pete, Jose, Donyell Marshall, Mighty Mouse, Anthony Parker. All deserve some recognition in the discussion of best Raptors by position, yet none would be considered great. To omit positions is to say nobody noteworthy ever played that position.

        Are you really trying to make this into a Wiggins trade thread? No thanks. I will add though, I really don't care if the Raps land a Canadian born star. As long as we get star players, nationality is just for the media and little kids.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #34
          If I were to build the BEST Raptors of all time at the peaks of their careers (regardless of which team they were on when they peaked)

          PG - Damon Stoudamire
          SG - Vince Carter
          SF - Tracy McGrady
          PF - Chris Bosh
          C - Hakeem Olajuwon

          ...we could've been great

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          • #35
            basstreblevol wrote: View Post
            If I were to build the BEST Raptors of all time at the peaks of their careers (regardless of which team they were on when they peaked)

            PG - Damon Stoudamire
            SG - Vince Carter
            SF - Tracy McGrady
            PF - Chris Bosh
            C - Hakeem Olajuwon

            ...we could've been great
            Now that's an interesting spin. Can't argue with any spots but i would want to see how Mark Jackson in his prime stats compared to Stoudamire. Same with Peja and T-Mac (I assume T-Mac would have the edge).
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • #36
              Billups was the best PG to ever play for the Raptors if you consider players that were successful for other teams. Billups was a 5 time allstar, and a finals MVP.

              Mark Jackson was a rookie of the year and made only one all-star team.

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              • #37
                planetmars wrote: View Post
                Billups was the best PG to ever play for the Raptors if you consider players that were successful for other teams. Billups was a 5 time allstar, and a finals MVP.

                Mark Jackson was a rookie of the year and made only one all-star team.
                True. Forgot about Chauncey.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • #38
                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  True. Forgot about Chauncey.
                  I had Chauncey on my initial list but put Stoudamire down because he had a few REALLY GOOD seasons (maybe biased because he was playing for Toronto at the time) while Billups was consistently great throughout his career and is a much more accomplished player.

                  Now Billups vs Stoudamire both in their prime...that's a tough one.

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                  • #39
                    basstreblevol wrote: View Post
                    .

                    Now Billups vs Stoudamire both in their prime...that's a tough one.
                    I'd take mr. Big shot. Dude was a leader his entire career. I could see him being the next player turned coach In the league. He's that good
                    I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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                    • #40
                      Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                      I'd take mr. Big shot. Dude was a leader his entire career. I could see him being the next player turned coach In the league. He's that good
                      meh, i don't like his face. watching him play when he was on the raptors with his mouth always curved up. i would still take damon over him also. those were some really good portland teams he played on.

                      from up above peja and mcgrady in their primes weren't even close.

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                      • #41
                        Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                        from up above peja and mcgrady in their primes weren't even close.
                        I agree that T Mac was better but I think their prime seasons were both spectacular. Many people forget how good Peja was.

                        I choose their best seasons as their 6th season each. Each played about 40mpg and while McGrady was more spectacular, Peja was more efficient.

                        McGrady scored 32ppg on 46% shooting and taking 24 shots per game. He also added 6 rebound and 5 assist.

                        Peja scored 24 while hitting 43% from deep and 7 less shots per game. He also added 6 rebounds per game.

                        If you were making a starting 5, Peja's shooting would be huge.
                        http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ratr01&y2=2003.
                        Last edited by Axel; Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:56 PM.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          I agree that T Mac was better but I think their prime seasons were both spectacular. Many people forget how good Peja was.

                          I choose their best seasons as their 6th season each. Each played about 40mpg and while McGrady was more spectacular, Peja was more efficient.

                          McGrady scored 32ppg on 46% shooting and taking 24 shots per game. He also added 6 rebound and 5 assist.

                          Peja scored 24 while hitting 43% from deep and 7 less shots per game. He also added 6 rebounds per game.

                          If you were making a starting 5, Peja's shooting would be huge.
                          http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ratr01&y2=2003.
                          Good point.

                          If I wanted to make the best possible lineup, I might go

                          C - Hakeem
                          PF - Bosh
                          SF - Peja
                          SG - Vince

                          and then

                          PG - McGrady

                          In his prime, McGrady was quick and long enough that he'd be able to keep up with a lot of PGs defensively, and then on the other end, the matchup would be a nightmare. And if the other team had a real ballhawk at the point give him trouble bringing it up the court, he could always just throw it over to Vince, who was always decent at initiating the offence.
                          Last edited by JimiCliff; Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:10 PM.
                          "Stop eating your sushi."
                          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                          - Jack Armstrong

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                          • #43
                            Axel wrote: View Post
                            I agree that T Mac was better but I think their prime seasons were both spectacular. Many people forget how good Peja was.

                            I choose their best seasons as their 6th season each. Each played about 40mpg and while McGrady was more spectacular, Peja was more efficient.

                            McGrady scored 32ppg on 46% shooting and taking 24 shots per game. He also added 6 rebound and 5 assist.

                            Peja scored 24 while hitting 43% from deep and 7 less shots per game. He also added 6 rebounds per game.

                            If you were making a starting 5, Peja's shooting would be huge.
                            http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ratr01&y2=2003.

                            Are you out of your mind???

                            T-Mac led the league in scoring and was an MVP candidate along with being one of the top defensive perimeter players in the league, on a team that he led.

                            Peja was the 3rd guy on a stacked Kings team.


                            Jesus, why don't we just throw Hedo in that slot then.

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                            • #44
                              Letter N wrote: View Post
                              Are you out of your mind???

                              T-Mac led the league in scoring and was an MVP candidate along with being one of the top defensive perimeter players in the league, on a team that he led.

                              Peja was the 3rd guy on a stacked Kings team.


                              Jesus, why don't we just throw Hedo in that slot then.
                              No I'm not out of my mind. Peja was an allstar and was considered one of the best shooters in that era. He was an elite 3 point shooter, something T-Mac never was. If you were having a lineup with Vince, Lowry, Bosh and Davis, I do think that Peja's outside shooting would make better sense to start, with McGrady in the 6th man role. Peja would create space and operate off the ball, allowing Vince and Lowry to have the ball. McGrady could come off the bench and operate with the ball.

                              I never said that Peja was better than T-Mac, I merely pointed out that the gap isn't nearly as big as people think. Peja's prime was on a west coast team 10 years ago, how many RR fans were staying up to watch the Kings (or were even old enough to stay up that late)? T-Mac has stronger history with this team and probably gets rose coloured glasses when we think of him.

                              Hedo comment is a bit off. Are you insinuating that one tall European is the same as another? Or do you honestly believe Hedo was nearly as good as Peja? Option 3 is that you're just being a jerk.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                              • #45
                                Axel wrote: View Post
                                No I'm not out of my mind. Peja was an allstar and was considered one of the best shooters in that era. He was an elite 3 point shooter, something T-Mac never was. If you were having a lineup with Vince, Lowry, Bosh and Davis, I do think that Peja's outside shooting would make better sense to start, with McGrady in the 6th man role. Peja would create space and operate off the ball, allowing Vince and Lowry to have the ball. McGrady could come off the bench and operate with the ball.

                                I never said that Peja was better than T-Mac, I merely pointed out that the gap isn't nearly as big as people think. Peja's prime was on a west coast team 10 years ago, how many RR fans were staying up to watch the Kings (or were even old enough to stay up that late)? T-Mac has stronger history with this team and probably gets rose coloured glasses when we think of him.

                                Hedo comment is a bit off. Are you insinuating that one tall European is the same as another? Or do you honestly believe Hedo was nearly as good as Peja? Option 3 is that you're just being a jerk.
                                Option 4, you don't know jack about ball if you're saying Peja Stojakovich was better than T-Mac at any point. Option 5 you just looked up some stats and tried to be different by comparing the THIRD OPTION on a stacked team with 2 of the best passing big men in the era to a perennial MVP candidate.

                                Also Hedo's 07-08 is right in line with Peja's best. You remember 07-08 for Hedo, when he was the 3rd option on a team with 2 big men that drew double teams. Or you probably don't, maybe you should go look up numbers about it.

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