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GAME 4: Toronto Raptors vs Boston Celtics 09/05/20 6:30 PM ET SN

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  • DanH
    replied
    DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post

    Dude I dont really get your need to shit on Casey. For all his faults, he knew how to make a good regular season strategy. Nurse is an exceptional NBA coach and Casey is league average - which can be good depending on where the team is.

    Casey led the team to second best records in the east with mediocre rosters at best - he helped set the foundation for the guys currently balling the fuck out. It certainly helps that Lowry was around because I think hes the most underrated NBA player over the last 6ish years.
    Your statement that Nurse is exceptional and Casey is about league average is pretty much in line with everything I said, no?

    I also think your statements on the mediocre rosters and how underrated Lowry is are in conflict.

    Leave a comment:


  • DogeLover1234
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    I don’t think the players on this team are viewed the same way re: quality of the roster if Casey was coaching the last two years.

    Absolutely, last year’s team was an amazingly talented outfit. And would have lost in the 2nd round under Casey. Losing Kawhi was a huge loss, and yet here we are yet again, one of the top seeds in the East and looking way better in the playoffs than any team under Casey did.

    Oh and Casey is absolutely the second best coach in Raptors history, easily. But that doesn’t mean he’s remotely close to the coach Nurse is. It just means that Raptors coaching history is littered with truly awful coaches.
    Dude I dont really get your need to shit on Casey. For all his faults, he knew how to make a good regular season strategy. Nurse is an exceptional NBA coach and Casey is league average - which can be good depending on where the team is.

    Casey led the team to second best records in the east with mediocre rosters at best - he helped set the foundation for the guys currently balling the fuck out. It certainly helps that Lowry was around because I think hes the most underrated NBA player over the last 6ish years.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post
    You keep feeling you have to write paragraph after paragraph day after day defending Gasol; you don't have to convince me or I'm sure quite a few others.

    I have been squarely in the hugely defensible camp of Gasol can and should be better, you need more than a few measly points and some nice passing out of your 7' starting centre. He could stretch the floor more, he could get his teammates better looks under less defensive pressure, we could win a few more games by a bit better margin, he could easily drop a few more buckets and easily grab a couple more rebounds without altering anything you praise him for at all .... but you like to argue that too. *shrug*

    Trivia: before Gasol, who was the last Raptor to foul out in 2 of 3 playoff games?

    Even Marc knows he could be better and both Kyle and Nurse have hinted they have asked more of him.
    What specifically did the stats lie about that you were referencing? The point Scraptor seemed to be making (and apologies to Scraptor if I misread this) is that me being glad Gasol was in to close the 4th until he fouled out was misplaced, as the team’s success there was entirely coincidental to Gasol’s presence, and would have had just as much success if not more if Serge were in his place for those minutes. You seemed to agree with that position with your stats lie comment.

    I never said that Gasol can’t be better. I’ve said multiple times I’d like to see him hit more shots. But I would also not give his minutes to Serge even with his current lack of production, because the team always gets worse when they do that. Feel free to criticize Gasol for his lack of production and ask more of him. I’ll continue to be happy with his lack of production SO LONG as it comes along with team success while he plays. In either case, neither of us should be thinking more Serge is a good thing, because it isn’t. I guess for the Celtics it would be.

    Leave a comment:


  • saints91
    replied
    I think no one is disagreeing that Nick is the better coach. Casey still deserves credit for being a part of the culture that helped build the Raptor culture we see today. Not completely but an even part. We have the front office we’ve ever had and the best coach we’ve ever had. As fans we’re pretty damn lucky. We all suffered though enough bad basketball.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    You keep feeling you have to write paragraph after paragraph day after day defending Gasol; you don't have to convince me or I'm sure quite a few others.

    I have been squarely in the hugely defensible camp of Gasol can and should be better, you need more than a few measly points and some nice passing out of your 7' starting centre. He could stretch the floor more, he could get his teammates better looks under less defensive pressure, we could win a few more games by a bit better margin, he could easily drop a few more buckets and easily grab a couple more rebounds without altering anything you praise him for at all .... but you like to argue that too. *shrug*

    Trivia: before Gasol, who was the last Raptor to foul out in 2 of 3 playoff games?

    Even Marc knows he could be better and both Kyle and Nurse have hinted they have asked more of him.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Jangles wrote: View Post

    I was not a fan of Casey during the latter part of his time with us. Having said that 4 of our wins during these playoffs have been against a G-League equivalent team.
    Okay, so call it 2-2 without either, a dramatically better win% than Casey’s, entirely against a Boston team that is far better than any non-LeBron team the Casey Raptors ever faced.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post

    Lol this roster is better than any Casey ever had. Its fair to say Casey is the second best coach in franchise history without putting down Nurse. Nurse is great, but like Kerr benefited from taking over the best roster in teams history
    I don’t think the players on this team are viewed the same way re: quality of the roster if Casey was coaching the last two years.

    Absolutely, last year’s team was an amazingly talented outfit. And would have lost in the 2nd round under Casey. Losing Kawhi was a huge loss, and yet here we are yet again, one of the top seeds in the East and looking way better in the playoffs than any team under Casey did.

    Oh and Casey is absolutely the second best coach in Raptors history, easily. But that doesn’t mean he’s remotely close to the coach Nurse is. It just means that Raptors coaching history is littered with truly awful coaches.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    That's why stats can lie.
    No, but people can misunderstand what stats are saying.

    In this case, the stats are saying that the Raptors won their minutes while Gasol was on the court. Nothing more, nothing less. They don’t tell us anything about causality.

    It is up to us to determine what we think is more logical - that the Raptors are winning those minutes and struggling in other minutes because Gasol is better than Serge, or in spite of Serge being/playing better than Gasol. And then we need to determine over what period to project that reasoning. Because the stats say that the Raptors have been winning Gasol’s minutes by a lot more than they’ve been winning Serge’s minutes since Gasol got here a year and a half ago, even adjusting for the players each plays with. So, do we think they are winning in spite of Gasol the entire time? Do we think they are winning in spite of Gasol just recently while he was actually helping before this, and if so, what are the odds that the results are so similar while the cause has apparently shifted?

    That’s the part where people claim that stats lie. They see something that literally just describes what happened (ie the Raptors have been beating the tar off the Celtics with Gasol and specifically the current version of the starters on the court from game 2 on), but for some reason or another don’t accept that he could possibly be the (or even a) cause of that. So, the stats must be lying. They go hunting for micro illustrations to support their points because they know the larger trends do not, even though they know that the larger trends are the more reliable, and should know that even within the micro illustrations, there are causalities that are non-obvious (and that show themselves in the large sample data).

    And then there is the last bastion of the denier - coincidence. Coincidence happens in small samples. Yeah, the +3 Gasol managed in Q4 is largely a coincidence. So too is every player’s success or failure over a few minutes. You can only control so much as one player of ten. But when small successes align with longer term, larger sample ones, you know that it’s not entirely a coincidence or it wouldn’t just keep happening, all the dang time. Or, you should know.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    Jangles wrote: View Post

    One of those guys had Kawhi while the other one had DeMar. Also notable.
    True but one also had Kawhi part time in the regular season and the other had DeMar. And the record improved percentage wise without Kawhi.....mike drop.

    Casey was pretty good but limited, Nurse is elite.
    Last edited by G__Deane; Sun Sep 6, 2020, 09:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    Scraptor wrote: View Post

    It is absolutely a coincidence imo.

    Yesterday Marc checks in with 4:48 remaining:
    -Kyle hits a 3 from OG
    -Marcus Smart gets Oreb and Gasol fouls him, Smart makes one free throw
    -Fred misses shot
    -Theis turnover
    -Marc makes easy bucket thanks to Kyle setup
    -Kemba misses three
    -Kyle fouled, hits fts
    -Brown hits three
    -Marc misses jumper
    -Og blocks Brown, Marc gets rebound
    -Kyle misses jumper
    -Tatum misses three, Marc fouls on the offensive rebound (again)
    -Theis misses both free throws
    -Marc is subbed out with 1:00 to go

    So we outscored them by 3 points, yes, but Marc had barely any impact. 1 fg and 1 rebound and 2 fouls in 3:48. He wasn't forcing those missed threes by the Celtics either. And if the Celtics had made their free throws Marc would have been a 0 in +/-.

    It's weird that you are still using him winning his minutes as evidence of anything. Like just watching Marc out there it is pretty obvious that he is a shell of his former self. I love the guy but he looks really rough right now.

    We won this game in spite of Marc, not because of him.



    That's why stats can lie.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    Its obvious that I am one of harshest if not the only out of bounds hyper-basher of Nick Nurse pre-Bucks series last off season. I softened my stance when he got us our first championship. Not to the extent as last season pre-Bucks series, But still annoyed with him this pre-Covid season especially his love-affair with the garbage of a player in McCaw.

    Win or Lose, Now I am fully committed to jump on his bandwagon. His major in-game adjustments defensively against the Celtics in game 4 is why he is an unconventional “outside of the box” progressive coach of this league. His players especially the ever difficult Greatest Raptor of All Time Klye Lowry totally drank his kool-aid and immersed themselves in their committment to their coach’s different styles of schemes at both ends. Even with inferior talent, he maximized his players abilities. How much more if he once again, he get awarded with another superstar like Kawhi.

    Well done COY.
    Don't feel bad.
    I think I was his only defender at one time and took a lot of heat for it. To be fair, I defended him a ton before and when he didn't deserve (all of) it.

    Leave a comment:


  • DogeLover1234
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    The guy who had Kawhi is 6-2 this year without either.
    Lol this roster is better than any Casey ever had. Its fair to say Casey is the second best coach in franchise history without putting down Nurse. Nurse is great, but like Kerr benefited from taking over the best roster in teams history

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    saints91 wrote: View Post
    Casey helped bring a culture of winning and stability to this franchise. While I do agree Nick is the better coach. The reason this version of the Raptors are winning is because of experience and confidence. To get that you have to be battle tested and go through adversity. You can’t take away what Coach Casey did. We’re lucky to have both of these coaches in our history.
    Not to downplay anything Casey did, but winning didn't start when he arrived. Winning started when we traded Rudy Gay and more importantly (and luckily) when we did not trade Kyle Lowry. Then Masai had the now legendary sit-down with Lowry to straighten him out, and the rest is history. That's the genesis of the 'winning culture'. We could have had Nate McMillan or Mike Brown, and it would have been the same result.

    Leave a comment:


  • saints91
    replied
    Casey helped bring a culture of winning and stability to this franchise. While I do agree Nick is the better coach. The reason this version of the Raptors are winning is because of experience and confidence. To get that you have to be battle tested and go through adversity. You can’t take away what Coach Casey did. We’re lucky to have both of these coaches in our history.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jangles
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    The guy who had Kawhi is 6-2 this year without either.
    I was not a fan of Casey during the latter part of his time with us. Having said that 4 of our wins during these playoffs have been against a G-League equivalent team.

    Leave a comment:

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