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  • Sonny wrote: View Post
    Can we realistically bring both Serge and Fred back next year?
    Depends. Do we want to save space in 2021?

    If not, it’s easy. Yes, we can. We match whatever 3 or 4 year deal at 10-15M per year is out there for Serge, we match whatever deal is there for Fred at 20-25M per year, and have a few million left to fill out the roster under the tax.

    But then our 2021 cap space is gone.

    If we want to go hunting for a big name FA in 2021, then we need to keep Fred down in the low 20M’s. And then to avoid the tax (which they should do) you only have about 20M left to offer Serge, unless we get lucky and the NBA sets the tax line higher than I am expecting. But Serge needs to be on a one year deal to keep 2021 space. So is 20M enough to get him to sign a one year if there are long term deals worth 45-60M out there for him? I don’t think so.

    If only one or the other stays, it is much easier. But keeping both will be hard. I expect other FA’s like Gasol and Boucher would be more open to a one year overpay than Serge, but I could be wrong.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • If Serg is okay with coming back for 1+1 team option then he’ll be back. Fred is back on a contract 22M and less.

      that’s how they both come back.

      Comment


      • Would Fred take 1 year max if he is only being offered 22M and less long term. Would he bet on himself again?

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        • saints91 wrote: View Post
          Would Fred take 1 year max if he is only being offered 22M and less long term. Would he bet on himself again?
          That would be stupid imo. Covid is gonna wreak havoc on the cap in the coming years. Take the term.
          It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

          Comment


          • Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

            Pascal made $2.3 million this year and was 2nd team all NBA. C'mon man it's not that bad.
            Also RE Lowry you pay more to get a shorter term. No way the Raptors give/gave him that on a 4 year deal. They want to go 1 year at a time and you pay a premium for that. In some cases it is worthwhile to do it.
            Kyle made $33M this season and will make $30M next in an extension so at the time was the same as a 2 year deal. Was worth it this year and likely worth it next year but he's being paid elite superstar money.

            Pascal at $2.3M was an obvious bargain but 30-36M for the next 4 years, he still needs to grow and deliver on that. He's capable but that still some high expectation$ to fill.

            Together, that's almost lebron/AD, Kawhi/PG money and as stated, their 3rd highest paid is 15M, much less than Serge and Marc are paid. Team payroll is a delicate balancing act. I think, however the cap situation works out, we need a 2a player to play with Kyle and Pascal and on the surface (facts not withstanding) there's salary to shed in order to sign.

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            • DanH wrote: View Post

              Depends. Do we want to save space in 2021?

              If not, it’s easy. Yes, we can. We match whatever 3 or 4 year deal at 10-15M per year is out there for Serge, we match whatever deal is there for Fred at 20-25M per year, and have a few million left to fill out the roster under the tax.

              But then our 2021 cap space is gone.

              If we want to go hunting for a big name FA in 2021, then we need to keep Fred down in the low 20M’s. And then to avoid the tax (which they should do) you only have about 20M left to offer Serge, unless we get lucky and the NBA sets the tax line higher than I am expecting. But Serge needs to be on a one year deal to keep 2021 space. So is 20M enough to get him to sign a one year if there are long term deals worth 45-60M out there for him? I don’t think so.

              If only one or the other stays, it is much easier. But keeping both will be hard. I expect other FA’s like Gasol and Boucher would be more open to a one year overpay than Serge, but I could be wrong.
              Do you think there is a contrarian scenario where we forego cap room in 2021 to resign FVV, maybe Serge on a 2 year deal and lock up OG on a more reasonable deal than he would sign next summer? Still having tradeable contracts if someone comes available? I mean if Giannis resigns on day 1 of free agency is there value in letting FVV and Serge walk to potentially have a crack at overpaying Oladipo? Just curious your thoughts if everyone else is saving for 2021 maybe there is value in offering OG 4 years $55 million instead of 4 years $85 million a year from now if he has a great season next year.

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              • DanH wrote: View Post

                Depends. Do we want to save space in 2021?

                If not, it’s easy. Yes, we can. We match whatever 3 or 4 year deal at 10-15M per year is out there for Serge, we match whatever deal is there for Fred at 20-25M per year, and have a few million left to fill out the roster under the tax.

                But then our 2021 cap space is gone.

                If we want to go hunting for a big name FA in 2021, then we need to keep Fred down in the low 20M’s. And then to avoid the tax (which they should do) you only have about 20M left to offer Serge, unless we get lucky and the NBA sets the tax line higher than I am expecting. But Serge needs to be on a one year deal to keep 2021 space. So is 20M enough to get him to sign a one year if there are long term deals worth 45-60M out there for him? I don’t think so.

                If only one or the other stays, it is much easier. But keeping both will be hard. I expect other FA’s like Gasol and Boucher would be more open to a one year overpay than Serge, but I could be wrong.
                Serge is now strictly a 5, so I would expect his comp to be Brook Lopez who got 4 yrs / $52M ($13M AAV). Lopez is All-NBA defense and maybe the best 3-pt shooter from the center position in the league, and still good in the post.

                Using Lopez as a benchmark perhaps Serge gets offered something like 11-12M/year for 3 or 4 years $33M to $48M in an uncertain market and teams trying to conserve cash because of Covid and 2021. So, it's possible a 1 year deal for $20M could really entice him. Kind of a bad year to be a mid-tier free agent, one-position, center.

                Comment


                • Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

                  Do you think there is a contrarian scenario where we forego cap room in 2021 to resign FVV, maybe Serge on a 2 year deal and lock up OG on a more reasonable deal than he would sign next summer? Still having tradeable contracts if someone comes available? I mean if Giannis resigns on day 1 of free agency is there value in letting FVV and Serge walk to potentially have a crack at overpaying Oladipo? Just curious your thoughts if everyone else is saving for 2021 maybe there is value in offering OG 4 years $55 million instead of 4 years $85 million a year from now if he has a great season next year.
                  Here's my take on 2021 free agency: it's not as stacked as it seems. On the first glance it looks like there will be tons of superstatrs up for grabs but in all likelihood most of them will stay with their current teams. The most high end UFAs next summer are:

                  Lebron
                  Kawhi
                  Anthony Davis
                  Giannis
                  Oladipo
                  Gobert
                  Jrue Holiday

                  Beyond that there might be some solid players here and there but nothing transformational enough that's worth contorting yourself cap-wise to get. The first 3 on the list above will certainly stay with their current teams, and as much as I'd love to be wrong, Giannis probably will as well. So that leaves Oladipo, Gobert and 31yr old Jrue. Are these guys worth revolving your team buiding strategy around? I'd say probably not.

                  It's really just hinging on Giannis. That's when the front office needs to do their best to gauge (through tampering or otherwise) what is the realistic chance of signing him. If it's slim to none, to me you sign FVV and Ibaka (even if takes away your max slot), and those 2 combined with Norm (plus picks), become excellent blue chip assets to move at the trade deadline for a higher end player on a sputtering team(eg Beal, Booker, CJ McCollum, Buddy Hield, Simmons, Embiid etc).
                  2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

                  Comment


                  • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                    Not really sure about breaking the bank...Lou Will was the reigning 6th man and is getting around 8M per, Freddy was a lead contributor off the bench for us the last few years and signed for 9M per. They're guards though and a lot has changed since those two signed their contracts....guys I've barely heard of are getting 15M these days. I think anyone after Harrel is hoping he turns into a (very) poor mans version of Adebayo, as a starter.

                    Two relevant teams looking for someone like that could be Dallas, they need a tough guy next to Kristaps to protect Luca. If they abandon the D'antonni ofense, Houston might be a second. A 3rd might be Toronto if the rumour is true.
                    Dallas needs another defender. Harrell looks more like an imprisoned and heavily in debt version of Adebayo if we're gonna use metaphors.

                    I hope the rumors are false about Toronto.

                    Comment


                    • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                      Here's my take on 2021 free agency: it's not as stacked as it seems. On the first glance it looks like there will be tons of superstatrs up for grabs but in all likelihood most of them will stay with their current teams. The most high end UFAs next summer are:

                      Lebron
                      Kawhi
                      Anthony Davis
                      Giannis
                      Oladipo
                      Gobert
                      Jrue Holiday

                      Beyond that there might be some solid players here and there but nothing transformational enough that's worth contorting yourself cap-wise to get. The first 3 on the list above will certainly stay with their current teams, and as much as I'd love to be wrong, Giannis probably will as well. So that leaves Oladipo, Gobert and 31yr old Jrue. Are these guys worth revolving your team buiding strategy around? I'd say probably not.

                      It's really just hinging on Giannis. That's when the front office needs to do their best to gauge (through tampering or otherwise) what is the realistic chance of signing him. If it's slim to none, to me you sign FVV and Ibaka (even if takes away your max slot), and those 2 combined with Norm (plus picks), become excellent blue chip assets to move at the trade deadline for a higher end player on a sputtering team(eg Beal, Booker, CJ McCollum, Buddy Hield, Simmons, Embiid etc).
                      If we assume, lebron the tamperer, AD, Kawhi and PG plus Giannis all return to their current teams, then the Raptors can kiss any chances at even another finals in the near future goodbye imo.

                      Kyle, Gasol and Serge will all be gone in the next few years/sooner. Or else marginalized through age and natural regression. Pascal, FVV (if he re-signs and OG is not a recipe for an ECF or finals appearance with the addition of middling talent.

                      Without significant upgrades, Raps are gonna fall back to a middling treadmill/playoff team. The Bucks and Celtics could rule the Division for years and the Nets are going to pizz off a few teams next year. Sixers, Miami ....

                      For years, a significant portion of Raptor angst was simply whether we could re-sign our own free agents, not who we could sign to improve; we're back to that.

                      This is Masai's greatest challenge.

                      Comment


                      • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                        If we assume, lebron the tamperer, AD, Kawhi and PG plus Giannis all return to their current teams, then the Raptors can kiss any chances at even another finals in the near future goodbye imo.

                        Kyle, Gasol and Serge will all be gone in the next few years/sooner. Or else marginalized through age and natural regression. Pascal, FVV (if he re-signs and OG is not a recipe for an ECF or finals appearance with the addition of middling talent.

                        Without significant upgrades, Raps are gonna fall back to a middling treadmill/playoff team. The Bucks and Celtics could rule the Division for years and the Nets are going to pizz off a few teams next year. Sixers, Miami ....

                        For years, a significant portion of Raptor angst was simply whether we could re-sign our own free agents, not who we could sign to improve; we're back to that.

                        This is Masai's greatest challenge.
                        Yes, that is Masai's challange, the one thing he hasn't done yet. That said, it doesn't mean we're going to suck in the near future if we don't sign one. Everyone predicted we would be the 6th seed struggling in the first round this year, some predicting we wouldn't even make the playoffs. We finished with the 2nd best record in the league, and almost made the ECF.

                        You're right that our vets are aging but so are the vets of other teams. Lebron is aging, Kawhi has been banged up, KD will be returning for a long term injury at age 32, and PG and AD have never carried a team on their own.

                        Bucks had a poor playoffs, even with a healthy Giannis. How long can they roll with the same Budenholzer inflexible system and not have teams figure them out? Sixers are a mess. Boston and Miami will be in a good position, but like everyone else they will have salary decisions and constraints on their roster too. Raps could take them in the next couple of years, even if we don't sign a big FA, provided we manage our assets carefully. We have tradeble good contracts (several still not far removed from a championship run, which make them very valuable), and for the first time in a couple of years, tradable picks.

                        Everyone would love the headline of a big FA choosing to come here (myslef included), but as it's always been, the backbone of this team's improvment will be internal development (best in the league), continuity, and management of assets, so you're always poised to execute good trades. That's how we achieved the best record in the NBA in the past 5 years (including an ECF and a championship). Every year they doubt this team, every year they exceed what was expected of them.
                        2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

                        Comment


                        • It’s basically up to our drafting abilities to keep us relevant. I have faith our front office will find guys at the back of the draft. Internal development and finding underperforming guys in FA will be the key for us not to a treadmill team.

                          I’m not keeping my hopes up
                          that Giannis comes here.

                          Comment


                          • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                            Yes, that is Masai's challange, the one thing he hasn't done yet. That said, it doesn't mean we're going to suck in the near future if we don't sign one. Everyone predicted we would be the 6th seed struggling in the first round this year, some predicting we wouldn't even make the playoffs. We finished with the 2nd best record in the league, and almost made the ECF.

                            You're right that our vets are aging but so are the vets of other teams. Lebron is aging, Kawhi has been banged up, KD will be returning for a long term injury at age 32, and PG and AD have never carried a team on their own.

                            Bucks had a poor playoffs, even with a healthy Giannis. How long can they roll with the same Budenholzer inflexible system and not have teams figure them out? Sixers are a mess. Boston and Miami will be in a good position, but like everyone else they will have salary decisions and constraints on their roster too. Raps could take them in the next couple of years, even if we don't sign a big FA, provided we manage our assets carefully. We have tradeble good contracts (several still not far removed from a championship run, which make them very valuable), and for the first time in a couple of years, tradable picks.

                            Everyone would love the headline of a big FA choosing to come here (myslef included), but as it's always been, the backbone of this team's improvment will be internal development (best in the league), continuity, and management of assets, so you're always poised to execute good trades. That's how we achieved the best record in the NBA in the past 5 years (including an ECF and a championship). Every year they doubt this team, every year they exceed what was expected of them.
                            If Kawhi never came here and we bowed out (again) in the second round last year to Philly (and we would have) and we bowed out (again) in the second round this year to Boston, I think we'd all be singing a different tune, Masai and Lowry's legacy included.
                            Think about that.

                            EDIT: What if Kawhi had come here and just been OK and we still got bounced in the second round by Philly as almost happened anyways?

                            You can be relevant, you can be competitive, you can be entertaining, you can have a good record, even make the post season.
                            But you virtually can't win a chip without at least one elite player and a good supporting cast. One example from decades ago doesn't refute that in this era of super teams.

                            Yes lebron is getting old, yes Durant and Kyrie have been banged up, yes Kawhi/PG/Clips have roster issues etc, Harden/Westbrook can't win when it counts etc

                            But the Celtics are going to be great for years now, Bucks aren't going to suddenly be terrible, Miami is solid and Dallas and the Nugs have very good and young foundations to build on.

                            I'm just saying that if Masai doesn't have a few magic beans left, fans here better be prepared to only be decent/good again here for a few years. Bandwagoners be jumpin' .... so not without benefits
                            Last edited by G__Deane; Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:00 PM.

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                            • saints91 wrote: View Post
                              It’s basically up to our drafting abilities to keep us relevant. I have faith our front office will find guys at the back of the draft. Internal development and finding underperforming guys in FA will be the key for us not to a treadmill team.

                              I’m not keeping my hopes up
                              that Giannis comes here.
                              I guess I'm trying to find the secret sauce to keep us more than just relevant again.

                              Comment


                              • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                                If Kawhi never came here and we bowed out (again) in the second round last year to Philly (and we would have) and we bowed out (again) in the second round this year to Boston, I think we'd all be singing a different tune, Masai and Lowry's legacy included.
                                Think about that.

                                EDIT: What if Kawhi had come here and just been OK and we still got bounced in the second round by Philly as almost happened anyways?

                                You can be relevant, you can be competitive, you can be entertaining, you can have a good record, even make the post season.
                                But you virtually can't win a chip without at least one elite player and a good supporting cast. One example from decades ago doesn't refute that in this era of super teams.

                                Yes lebron is getting old, yes Durant and Kyrie have been banged up, yes Kawhi/PG/Clips have roster issues etc, Harden/Westbrook can't win when it counts etc

                                But the Celtics are going to be great for years now, Bucks aren't going to suddenly be terrible, Miami is solid and Dallas and the Nugs have very good and young foundations to build on.

                                I'm just saying that if Masai doesn't have a few magic beans left, fans here better be prepared to only be decent/good again here for a few years. Bandwagoners be jumpin' .... so not without benefits
                                Masai came here and turned a playoff team into a championship team in not too long. The team is now a second round team again with some options in the next couple seasons for getting better. I really don't see the need for too much pessimism, good management keeps NBA teams good and that's a fact. The middling and poor teams have middling to poor management. The organization is well set up right now, these aren't the Colangelo years.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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