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  • #31
    Just an after thought, but is Giannis still plan A? 2 years in a row he gets walled off from entering the paint and his team falls apart in the playoffs. What's the counter the Raptors are capable of which the Bucks....already a team built around Giannis, were not capable of?

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    • #32
      LJ2 wrote: View Post
      Just an after thought, but is Giannis still plan A? 2 years in a row he gets walled off from entering the paint and his team falls apart in the playoffs. What's the counter the Raptors are capable of which the Bucks....already a team built around Giannis, were not capable of?
      I'd say its Plan A, with back up plans in place in case it doesn't happen. Nurse is a better coach than Bud, so we have that going. Bucks don't have a proper playmaker at PG or a shot creator. I would say Kyle is it, but he'll be 36 if Giannis comes here. Siakam is fine to pair with Giannis, but Raptors will need a PG or SG who can pass and create their own shot.

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      • #33
        LJ2 wrote: View Post
        Just an after thought, but is Giannis still plan A? 2 years in a row he gets walled off from entering the paint and his team falls apart in the playoffs. What's the counter the Raptors are capable of which the Bucks....already a team built around Giannis, were not capable of?
        If Giannis is not plan A. Who we can realistically target to put over the edge?
        Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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        • #34
          Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

          There is an interesting comparison to that on Clippers boards right now RE Doc Rivers. Montrez was -19 in 15 minutes today while Zubac was + 11. Harrell is like -60 in the playoffs and doc is still riding his horses that got him there.

          Well, I haven't watched the Clippers games so I can't speak about this one with certainty, but this I know: individual raw +/- is a dubious metric at best. This +11 from Zubac may very well be because he's sharing the court more often with Kawhi than Harrell is. Anyone sharing the court with Kawhi will have an easier time "winning his minutes", even if they don't do much. Same with people playing with Lowry and defensive beasts like OG and Siakam. You pretty much just need to show up and you're a plus (unless you're Gasol, who managed to be the only rotation player on the Raptors with a "-" this postseason, despite mostly playing with Lowry who usually carry teammates. That was too much liability, even for Lowry and the other starters)

          https://stats.nba.com/players/tradit...mID=1610612761

          The only way you can compare individual +/-'s and be apples to apples is if the minutes of the two players being compared are with the same teammates AND against the same opponents. Plus the sample need to be large enough to not be a fluke, and recent enough to be meaningful. That's pretty much impossible to do, so it becomes a noisy, unreliable stat used to either validate or complain about players people have a bias one way or the other.

          Like, I've never been on a bar where there's been a fight. My cousin, back in the day, witnessed two or three. And we usually hung out at the same places. Does that mean I'm all of a sudden this big pacifying force and he's an agitator? No, we just happened to be at the right place at right (or wrong) time and had little to do with what what's going on around (unless we were the ones either starting or preventing the fights, which neither of us were). Teammates carry players up or down all the time.

          Having said all that, the point about the coaches stand. As a coach, there's a fine line between being reactionary and being stubborn, and coaches that know how to walk that line right are the ones that can take their team further. Doc Rivers may be very well be acting stubborn, but hard to say as haven't really watched the Cips games closely. I watched the Raps game really close though. A little shorter leash to some guys and a little longer to others and we'd be in the ECF now.
          2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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          • #35
            LJ2 wrote: View Post
            Just an after thought, but is Giannis still plan A? 2 years in a row he gets walled off from entering the paint and his team falls apart in the playoffs. What's the counter the Raptors are capable of which the Bucks....already a team built around Giannis, were not capable of?
            I'd say he's definitely plan A. Need two things:

            A. Have him learn to shoot 3's. That's literally the only thing missing in his game. In order to be truly difficult to guard you need both an inside and outside game.
            B. Have 4 other 2-way players sharing the court with him. To go deep in the playoffs, you can't have 1-way players that are duds on one end of the floor. You don't need to be perfect on both ends, but everyone needs to to defend AND be a factor offensively, otherwise you're playing 4 on 5, and late playoff rounds are way too competitive to let a teams get away with that crap. Coaches need to watch the series in front of them closely and make the right moves, not just tactical adjustments, but also in terms of lineups and minutes. Budenholzer is way too inflexible with his system, so he paid the price.

            I wish I could say it'd be for sure different here, but Nurse can also be pretty stubborn with his favourites. For all we know he could force Giannis to play with McCaw for 30 mins every game as well as 38 yr old Gasol, well into the playoffs.
            2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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            • #36
              LJ2 wrote: View Post
              Just an afterthought, but is Giannis still plan A? 2 years in a row he gets walled off from entering the paint and his team falls apart in the playoffs. What's the counter the Raptors are capable of which the Bucks....already a team built around Giannis, were not capable of?
              I personally think so. They miss-use him. I think you can have him running downhill YES.. in transition this team would be NUTTY... but his defence is insane... because it would be like having two pascals...


              I think the key thing is ...if pascal can develop a midrange and semi-reliable 3 game... I think P skills is better at running an offense as a point forward because we see that he CAN pass. Obviously things he needs to work on (upper body strength being a BIG one).


              I also think that Giannis needs reliable counters and post moves... so I think that's how you develop Giannis to be the center of the future. He should be doing pick and roll more often.... and should be working on his footwork...


              He literally has no post game and that's what he needs. Pascal started but then they started working on other things.. but both need to work on the post-game.....

              Also him learning how to shoot the 3 would be good too but the bucks ruined his mechanics so that would be a two-year project.

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              • #37
                inthepaint wrote: View Post

                I'd say he's definitely plan A. Need two things:

                A. Have him learn to shoot 3's. That's literally the only thing missing in his game. In order to be truly difficult to guard you need both an inside and outside game.
                B. Have 4 other 2-way players sharing the court with him. To go deep in the playoffs, you can't have 1-way players that are duds on one end of the floor. You don't need to be perfect on both ends, but everyone needs to to defend AND be a factor offensively, otherwise you're playing 4 on 5, and late playoff rounds are way too competitive to let a teams get away with that crap. Coaches need to watch the series in front of them closely and make the right moves, not just tactical adjustments, but also in terms of lineups and minutes. Budenholzer is way too inflexible with his system, so he paid the price.

                I wish I could say it'd be for sure different here, but Nurse can also be pretty stubborn with his favourites. For all we know he could force Giannis to play with McCaw for 30 mins every game as well as 38 yr old Gasol, well into the playoffs.
                thats just it... we have tons of two way players plus him... and thats what the bucks messed up on..

                Cant built a team that can only play one style.

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                • #38
                  When does 20-21 season start?

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                  • #39
                    Sonny wrote: View Post
                    When does 20-21 season start?
                    Christmas
                    Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                    • #40
                      DanH wrote: View Post

                      The difference, of course, being that the Raptors were -27 in Gasol’s 148 minutes in the Boston series.

                      And a dramatically better... -27 in Serge’s 158 minutes.

                      As brutal as that game 7 was from Gasol (though more invisible than actively bad), the story of the series was not which C played (and the wins basically all came down to the Raps crushing the Celtics in Gasol’s and specifically the starters’ minutes), it was the cold shooting and the complete lack of Pascal playing like himself leading to too much being put on Lowry.
                      This is selection bias... you can't give Gasol a share of the credit for the wins and then handwave away his performance in the losses. Though I agree that Marc vs Serge wasn't the biggest factor on its own, it was a combination of Marc, Pascal, and Fred.

                      As bad as Pascal was, if we are going to use +/-, he was still a +4.7 in Netratg, second on the team. Kyle was first among the main guys with a +16.7.

                      Serge and Marc were relatively close at -4.5 and -5.2. OG at -5.9, Norm at -9.9.

                      Fred was a team worst -16.5. You might think, well the numbers are noisy because he was only off for 49 minutes, but Kyle and Pascal were only off 52 and 61 minutes.

                      Fred had an atrocious 46% TS on the highest usage on the team. He wasted A LOT of possessions, and I think that is getting overlooked because he hit some big shots too.

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                      • #41
                        LJ2 wrote: View Post
                        Just an after thought, but is Giannis still plan A? 2 years in a row he gets walled off from entering the paint and his team falls apart in the playoffs. What's the counter the Raptors are capable of which the Bucks....already a team built around Giannis, were not capable of?
                        That's the real kick in the teeth. We didn't make it any farther than the Bucks, and they have a huge financial advantage in retaining him. If he doesn't sign the supermax this summer then we have to perform much much better next playoffs to make our case in the 2021 offseason.

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                        • #42
                          Scraptor wrote: View Post

                          That's the real kick in the teeth. We didn't make it any farther than the Bucks, and they have a huge financial advantage in retaining him. If he doesn't sign the supermax this summer then we have to perform much much better next playoffs to make our case in the 2021 offseason.
                          What would he have to turn down to come here? 100 million dollars?

                          Hard to see it happening.

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                          • #43
                            There is a very low chance Giannis comes here. We have to keep that percentage in mind when building this team.

                            Masai honoured this team by letting them defend their championship. We could see a big shift this summer. We signed Kyle to a very tradable extension, we have all of our draft picks. We have 2 young wings In Pascal and OG to build around. As a franchise we’re in a good spot. There is a good chance we try to resign guys on one year contracts to keep their contracts as assets and preserve cap room for next year. The 2021 season might be a shitshow.... so there is a good possibility we do nothing except retain guys on 1 year contracts (I doubt Fred and Serg except that)
                            Last edited by saints91; Mon Sep 14th, 2020, 07:59 AM.

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                            • #44
                              LJ2 wrote: View Post

                              Well the thing is, Theis pretty much just needed to be competent and their team did fine. The C position doesn't need to be manned by an All Star caliber player, he just needs to be a competent role player. Like so many have said before the star player(s) on your team are ideally wings. Between Gasol and Ibaka, how much $$ did we have tied up? Save the cap,space for the positions of greater importance, let both Gasol and Ibaka

                              walk if the price is too high, man those spots with competent role players and invest the big money in a SG.
                              I agree with this philosophy, wings win games
                              now. You basically need a bunch of guy that have the ability to create their own shot. Spending a bunch of money on a guy can’t do that is counterproductive.

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                              • #45
                                golden wrote: View Post

                                We don’t need any more upside from Boucher. Just need him to maintain the stellar numbers he put up when he got to play extended minutes. I posted those splits earlier. The gamble would be to see if that’s real and sustainable. One thing that is real is that he plays hard, fearless and with a lot of heart. The other obvious concern is his body, - he’s not going to be an Embiid stopper.

                                We’re talking about 5M for a versatile backup PF/C. That doesn’t seem like much. Who would you recommend at that price?
                                No one. I would recommend no one in that role at that price, not right now. The Raptors are aiming to keep their cap space. You find a role player with a draft pick or for the minimum. Signings like a 5M backup are luxuries you indulge in when you are working with exceptions, you don’t spend cap space on that.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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