Everything Off Season

[golden]

I agree that Fred, when overused on offence, is problematic. Unfortunately Pascal was a no show offensively so we were stuck with that.

I have to say I find your evaluation of Fred’s playoff defence baffling.

That's been my point, going back to last year.... Fred needs Pascal... a lot. Not to mention, he has another major advantage of lining up beside Lowry. After Fred dribbles 15 seconds off the clock, he always has that safety valve of passing to Lowry to make an actual play.

And in terms of defence: Kemba was torching FVV early in the series, so we had to use Box & 1 to protect Fred... but that creates problems elsewhere, like Theis sneaking along the baseline for lobs. If FVV can guard Kemba without a gimmick defense, and be able to switch on guys like Brown and Tatum without being a liability, then his defense is more valuable.

His whole tenure here, it seems like Fred has been protected from his flaws being exposed and given unlimited opportunities to fail & succeed. He's not a point-guard who can create an advantage in the half-court. He still can't finish reliably at the rim vs. length. And he's not really a shut-down defender of opposing guards. These things matter in the playoffs.

He's a great 'wide-open' shooter and tertiary ball-handler, which should be replaceable with that players that we have, if given half the unlimited, unconditional opportunity that Fred (and McCaw) has received.

[DanH]

The ideas of being protected from his flaws being exposed and being given free rein to succeed or fail in roles he’s not suited for are polar opposites.

[LJ2]

I'm more interested in them finding a replacement for Lowry than anything else. We need that player that drives wins the way Lowry does.

[DogeLover1234]

I'm more interested in them finding a replacement for Lowry than anything else. We need that player that drives wins the way Lowry does.

Not the same position, but everything Ive seen from OG suggests he wont be the next Kawhi, but could replace Lowry’s impact. Dude plays really smart, not afraid of the moment and makes all the winning plays. Think with a better handle he’ll show off his good passing instincts.

[Rudy Bargnani]

Steph put up 30/5/6 on .600 TS%. One of his best playoff series ever. And he did that a lot on his own. Yeah, great job.

[golden]

The ideas of being protected from his flaws being exposed and being given free rein to succeed or fail in roles he’s not suited for are polar opposites.

Not mutually exclusive at all. FVV is protected on offense, as long as we have somebody performing at a legit 1st option (e.g. Pascal or Kawhi) to attract the attention of the defense. Once that protection was gone, FVV's talent ceiling was exposed. Lowry, Serge & OG, for example, didn't suffer the same drop-off as FVV. Neither did Matt Thomas, who would be a viable replacement for FVV.

[DanH]

Not mutually exclusive at all. FVV is protected on offense, as long as we have somebody performing at a legit 1st option (e.g. Pascal or Kawhi) to attract the attention of the defense. Once that protection was gone, FVV's talent ceiling was exposed. Lowry, Serge & OG, for example, didn't suffer the same drop-off as FVV. Neither did Matt Thomas, who would be a viable replacement for FVV.

Lowry is awesome. If a Serge or OG had to do what the Raptors ask Fred to do, they’d look awful.

[golden]

Lowry is awesome. If a Serge or OG had to do what the Raptors ask Fred to do, they’d look awful.

In total agreement. At 10M a year, I’m more than fine with Fred being a highly limited role player. At 20M+.... not so much.

[DanH]

In total agreement. At 10M a year, I’m more than fine with Fred being a highly limited role player. At 20M+.... not so much.

Come on, Fred is not limited for a role player. He’s excessively capable for a role player. He’s limited if you expect him to be something he’s not (and won’t be paid like): a star.

And I think you are still living in a 60M cap mindset with that valuation.

[LJ2]

Not the same position, but everything Ive seen from OG suggests he wont be the next Kawhi, but could replace Lowry’s impact. Dude plays really smart, not afraid of the moment and makes all the winning plays. Think with a better handle he’ll show off his good passing instincts.

I dunno, OG is great but right now he's definitely only shown he can be a role player. That's not a bad thing, but Lowry does so many more things on the floor including creating plays for himself and others, leadership, can be the best player on the floor against a lot of teams etc. Lowry is like a hybrid or tweener between an All Star and a Superstar.

[golden]

Come on, Fred is not limited for a role player. He’s excessively capable for a role player. He’s limited if you expect him to be something he’s not (and won’t be paid like): a star.

And I think you are still living in a 60M cap mindset with that valuation.

No, you keep missing the point. I fully realize that FVV can command a salary north of 20M per year - and that is a fair market price under this year's cap, i.e., the Greater Fool Theory.

The point is that you can replace what Fred does and/or get some things that he doesn't do (e.g. legit backup PG) ..... for much, much cheaper. 3 of those cheaper players (Powell, TD, Thomas) are already on the roster.

[inthepaint]

I dunno, OG is great but right now he's definitely only shown he can be a role player. That's not a bad thing, but Lowry does so many more things on the floor including creating plays for himself and others, leadership, can be the best player on the floor against a lot of teams etc. Lowry is like a hybrid or tweener between an All Star and a Superstar.

Yeah Lowry is a bit of a unicorn, he'll be very difficult to replace. He's a classic PG that sees the other 9 players on the floor really well and is always anticipating the movement of 3 or 4 players around him (including teammates and opponents). This is specially true on classic actions like pick and rolls; he's done that so many times over his career he perfected the timing of passes and finding open spaces for him and for the bigs in the action.

When you hear rookies having trouble adjusting to the speed of the NBA, it's the opposite for guys like Lowry, for whom the game has slowed down over the years. That's why he can still hang with 20 yr olds out there. He makes all teammates better.

When he retires is when we will be truly "rebuilding". We won't get guys like him as free agents. Via trades is also hard because players with that much court vision, range and ability to drive to the paint (eg Trae Young) are automatically franchise players, even if the defence is not there yet. So you almost have to draft and groom one.

I can see TD putting the time to develop the court awareness Lowry has, but that will take time, and more importantly, confidence and minutes from his coach. You can't develop the game Lowry has over the years but not being allowed to make mistakes. You have to have the chance to play through them and not get a quick hook any time there's a turnover or blown coverage.

[golden]

Yeah Lowry is a bit of a unicorn, he'll be very difficult to replace. He's a classic PG that sees the other 9 players on the floor really well and is always anticipating the movement of 3 or 4 players around him (including teammates and opponents). This is specially true on classic actions like pick and rolls; he's done that so many times over his career he perfected the timing of passes and finding open spaces for him and for the bigs in the action.

When you hear rookies having trouble adjusting to the speed of the NBA, it's the opposite for guys like Lowry, for whom the game has slowed down over the years. That's why he can still hang with 20 yr olds out there. He makes all teammates better.

When he retires is when we will be truly "rebuilding". We won't get guys like him as free agents. Via trades is also hard because players with that much court vision, range and ability to drive to the paint (eg Trae Young) are automatically franchise players, even if the defence is not there yet. So you almost have to draft and groom one.

I can see TD putting the time to develop the court awareness Lowry has, but that will take time, and more importantly, confidence and minutes from his coach. You can't develop the game Lowry has over the years but not being allowed to make mistakes. You have to have the chance to play through them and not get a quick hook any time there's a turnover or blown coverage.

Other than the 3-point shot, Rondo is basically the high IQ floor general type of PG you described. He's completely turned around the Lakers from when they entered the bubble. Dragic is not at Lowry BBIQ level, but he's pretty good overall and better at other things (shot creation, finishing) which might not age well.

As for TD... Lowry didn't become Lowry until he was on his third team. Seems like the league is trending younger, though. A lot of good young players on the horizon.

[LJ2]

Other than the 3-point shot, Rondo is basically the high IQ floor general type of PG you described. He's completely turned around the Lakers from when they entered the bubble. Dragic is not at Lowry BBIQ level, but he's pretty good overall and better at other things (shot creation, finishing) which might not age well.

As for TD... Lowry didn't become Lowry until he was on his third team. Seems like the league is trending younger, though. A lot of good young players on the horizon.

De'Aaron Fox reminds me a bit of Lowry. He doesn't have the 3pt shooting (yet), but he has a way of making the players around him better when he's on the floor.

[DanH]

No, you keep missing the point. I fully realize that FVV can command a salary north of 20M per year - and that is a fair market price under this year's cap, i.e., the Greater Fool Theory.

The point is that you can replace what Fred does and/or get some things that he doesn't do (e.g. legit backup PG) ..... for much, much cheaper. 3 of those cheaper players (Powell, TD, Thomas) are already on the roster.

Again, none of those players can do what Fred does, certainly none of them have proven to be able to. The weaknesses you criticize Fred for are currently very present in every one of their games - which of those three are you handing the ball to create offence? - and not one of those players is yet half the defender Fred is.