Game #4 New York Knicks @ Toronto Bay Raptors. 7:00 PM Tampa Bay, Florida. 7:30 PM Sportsnet

[DanH]

Well, a win. Knicks, sure, but a win. No nailbiter either even with the first few quarters being closer than they should have been. Yay.

[Kagemusha]

So a mistake re-signing Fred?

Trade him for Harden

[G__Deane]

Fred’s other problem is that he’s too slow. You need to go back and watch the Celtics series and recall that Boston took away his passing angles and literally gave him an open lane to drive straight to the hoop, because they knew he couldn’t beat a help defender or even the his man chasing him from behind to the rim. And Fred took the bait again and again & got stuffed at the rim. That’s where he needs the floater or quick stop & pop mid-range jumpshot, like inthepaint said.... neither of which Fred has in his bag. When an opposing defense schemes specifically to let you score, then you know that’s a weakness they will exploit over and over. Teams also try that scheme with Lowry, but even at his age, he’s still quicker and craftier getting to the rim than FVV.

The other thing more teams are doing now is putting long wing defenders onto good 3pt shooting point guards. We saw that with the Celtics and the Hawks put Reddish and Hunter on Kyrie and neutralized him for 2 straight games.

And as great a 3-pt shooter as he is, Fred’s only counter to long defenders is basically trying to take step-back 30 foot jump shots. That’s not sustainable. You can’t have a slow, short, un-athletic starting shooting guard in the NBA these days and expect to win big unless you have talent elsewhere on the roster attracting the attention of the defense and making plays, which is pretty much how Fred made his name.

I would love Fred as a backup shooting guard, making 10-15m/year, but we’re wasting our time trying to force fit him into trying to be an NBA caliber PG and even the current starting SG role he has, unless there are some major talent upgrades to the roster. Those minutes should be used developing players with more upside, like Flynn and TD and seeing what Matt Thomas can become.

So a mistake re-signing Fred?

[golden]

Idk maybe I just have a different take. When you accept that hes going to struggle finishing at the rim and needs to take an extra dribble to find a passing angle occassionally hes pretty dang good.

Hes an exceptional shooter, even off the dribble and takes what is available. That means hes not nearly as flashy as say Luka or Trey Young who can take what they want, but also means he doesnt turn the ball over a lot while also racking up impressive assist totals.

His issue in not finding bigs often has been that they are rarely open, like Baynes will roll the wrong way, take up a driving lane on his way to the rim to get rebounding position - its terrible. Boucher is a good roller, and gets that pocket pass a lot. Whats been bogging us down and leads to Fred late clock isos is the lack of creation from everyone else not named Lowry. Like its not James Harden level of dynamic guard play, but using a PnR to get to the elbow (where FVV is a capable pull up shooter) and kick out to a wing is perfectly acceptable in terms of gaining an advantage for your team - we just really lack the secondary creators. Ends up being a lotof 3s which have not been falling.

So is it FVVs fault? Yes hes just not the engine for a dynamic offense, but hes also not paid to be - hes the third highest paid guy for a reason. I just dont think you have to reinvent basketball or singlehandedly pick apart defenses to be considered a good point guard.

edit: and inthepaint, while I totally agree about the importance of a runner for a guard, I really think Nurse and co dont. They seem really picky on who and when to take mid rangers. Our shot profile it nearly the same as Moreyball and I dont think its a coincedence. We’d just rather jack up a ton to 3s.

Fred’s other problem is that he’s too slow. You need to go back and watch the Celtics series and recall that Boston took away his passing angles and literally gave him an open lane to drive straight to the hoop, because they knew he couldn’t beat a help defender or even the his man chasing him from behind to the rim. And Fred took the bait again and again & got stuffed at the rim. That’s where he needs the floater or quick stop & pop mid-range jumpshot, like inthepaint said.... neither of which Fred has in his bag. When an opposing defense schemes specifically to let you score, then you know that’s a weakness they will exploit over and over. Teams also try that scheme with Lowry, but even at his age, he’s still quicker and craftier getting to the rim than FVV.

The other thing more teams are doing now is putting long wing defenders onto good 3pt shooting point guards. We saw that with the Celtics and the Hawks put Reddish and Hunter on Kyrie and neutralized him for 2 straight games.

And as great a 3-pt shooter as he is, Fred’s only counter to long defenders is basically trying to take step-back 30 foot jump shots. That’s not sustainable. You can’t have a slow, short, un-athletic starting shooting guard in the NBA these days and expect to win big unless you have talent elsewhere on the roster attracting the attention of the defense and making plays, which is pretty much how Fred made his name.

I would love Fred as a backup shooting guard, making 10-15m/year, but we’re wasting our time trying to force fit him into trying to be an NBA caliber PG and even the current starting SG role he has, unless there are some major talent upgrades to the roster. Those minutes should be used developing players with more upside, like Flynn and TD and seeing what Matt Thomas can become.

[planetmars]

That's a good trade. Only really works if Harden voids his trade kicker. That 15% would make us a tax team. So that's not something Masai would want. But if Harden wants to leave Houston so bad, that shouldn't be a problem in theory.

[JawsGT]

A 3-way Raps/Rockets/Nuggets trade would not surprise me.

To Raps: Harden, Tucker McLemore
To Nuggets: Pascal, TD, McCaw
To Rockets: MPJ, Powell, Harris, Barton, 2 1sts and 2 2nd round picks (from each of Raps & Nuggets)

It all works out perfectly, salary-wise.

Rockets covet MPJ, but Nuggets don’t want or need another one-dimensional ball dominant scorer in Harden.

Interesting that the Nuggets won’t play MPJ next 3 games for “COVID protocol” reasons. And we sat Pascal out for the equivalent of jaywalking across from your own house. Also notice that we’re not playing Flynn, so he’s probably in the trade talks too, but I don’t want to include him. Or maybe we’re trying to hide him, lol.

Pascal is a perfect fit for Denver after they lost Jerami Grant. Jokic/Murray/Pascal is a legit championship core for years.

That seems like a great trade for everyone. Maybe the nuggets are giving up a bit too much, with harris and barton as well as the picks, but like you said pascal would be such a great fit there. Offensively playing behind jokic and murray is ideal and he would upgrade their defence substantially. Keeping one of harris and barton would be ideal, unless another decent guard is included. TD helps, but a better piece than mccaw might make losing the picks more palatable. The rockets get a good return for harden and a young piece to build around. The raps get their scorer and a solid 3&D player in tucker. Losing pascal hurts though. He'd be ideal next to harden and lowry. No way we could participate without offering him though.

[DogeLover1234]

Fred gets bogged down trying to iso guys as well, and he not a great pick and roll passer. Lowry is notable the better passer and tends to get guys going better.

Idk maybe I just have a different take. When you accept that hes going to struggle finishing at the rim and needs to take an extra dribble to find a passing angle occassionally hes pretty dang good.

Hes an exceptional shooter, even off the dribble and takes what is available. That means hes not nearly as flashy as say Luka or Trey Young who can take what they want, but also means he doesnt turn the ball over a lot while also racking up impressive assist totals.

His issue in not finding bigs often has been that they are rarely open, like Baynes will roll the wrong way, take up a driving lane on his way to the rim to get rebounding position - its terrible. Boucher is a good roller, and gets that pocket pass a lot. Whats been bogging us down and leads to Fred late clock isos is the lack of creation from everyone else not named Lowry. Like its not James Harden level of dynamic guard play, but using a PnR to get to the elbow (where FVV is a capable pull up shooter) and kick out to a wing is perfectly acceptable in terms of gaining an advantage for your team - we just really lack the secondary creators. Ends up being a lotof 3s which have not been falling.

So is it FVVs fault? Yes hes just not the engine for a dynamic offense, but hes also not paid to be - hes the third highest paid guy for a reason. I just dont think you have to reinvent basketball or singlehandedly pick apart defenses to be considered a good point guard.

edit: and inthepaint, while I totally agree about the importance of a runner for a guard, I really think Nurse and co dont. They seem really picky on who and when to take mid rangers. Our shot profile it nearly the same as Moreyball and I dont think its a coincedence. We’d just rather jack up a ton to 3s.

[inthepaint]

Oddshark update as of Dec 30th for Harden's landing spot is Philly, Heat (who stated they're out of the pursuit), Nets & Raptors, in that order.

[inthepaint]

That would be a really good return for Houston. Think this idea would hinge on the nuggets. How much do they value MPJ over a guy whose been the 3rd and sometimes 2nd best player on a championship team.

Yeah MPJ is a heck of a prospect, and he's only 22. Denver may be looking for more on this hypothetical deal, and it would come from Toronto, either in the form of a pick or Thomas or Flynn instead of McCaw unfortunately. I'd still go for it the whole thing depended on just that. Houston's return looks fair.

EDIT: the whole unknown here is who Pascal really is. If this funk is temporary, and he's close to his all-star starter level, all-nba, he's much better than MPJ. If bubble P is here to stay then we're screwed.

[golden]

That would be a really good return for Houston. Think this idea would hinge on the nuggets. How much do they value MPJ over a guy whose been the 3rd and sometimes 2nd best player on a championship team.

MPJ seems overhyped, so if I’m the Nuggets I would sell high right now. The guy was already complaining about not getting touches in his first year playing. Sure, he’ll be a great scorer, but he feels like a Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Melo-lite type of player who will give everything back on the defensive end.

Pascal is a proven 2A/2B championship player who helps you win games on both sides of the ball. But he’s completely mis-cast here as a number 1 option and will never be that guy.

[bertarapsfan]

A 3-way Raps/Rockets/Nuggets trade would not surprise me.

To Raps: Harden, Tucker McLemore
To Nuggets: Pascal, TD, McCaw
To Rockets: MPJ, Powell, Harris, Barton, 2 1sts and 2 2nd round picks (from each of Raps & Nuggets)

It all works out perfectly, salary-wise.

Rockets covet MPJ, but Nuggets don’t want or need another one-dimensional ball dominant scorer in Harden.

Interesting that the Nuggets won’t play MPJ next 3 games for “COVID protocol” reasons. And we sat Pascal out for the equivalent of jaywalking across from your own house. Also notice that we’re not playing Flynn, so he’s probably in the trade talks too, but I don’t want to include him. Or maybe we’re trying to hide him, lol.

Pascal is a perfect fit for Denver after they lost Jerami Grant. Jokic/Murray/Pascal is a legit championship core for years.

That would be a really good return for Houston. Think this idea would hinge on the nuggets. How much do they value MPJ over a guy whose been the 3rd and sometimes 2nd best player on a championship team.

[golden]

We're all expecting you to report to work and tell your employer that his expectation that you would put in an 8 hour day and not screw around and check out your Raptors fan site during work hours is wrong, so you are happy to accept less money.

Great advice, Puff. I just asked my employer:

*checks mirror*

He said.... no problem, you’re golden.

[Puffer]

...If you can’t handle the expectations, then take less money. Simple as that.

We're all expecting you to report to work and tell your employer that his expectation that you would put in an 8 hour day and not screw around and check out your Raptors fan site during work hours is wrong, so you are happy to accept less money.

[The Claw Reborn]

A 3-way Raps/Rockets/Nuggets trade would not surprise me.

To Raps: Harden, Tucker McLemore
To Nuggets: Pascal, TD, McCaw
To Rockets: MPJ, Powell, Harris, Barton, 2 1sts and 2 2nd round picks (from each of Raps & Nuggets)

It all works out perfectly, salary-wise.

Rockets covet MPJ, but Nuggets don’t want or need another one-dimensional ball dominant scorer in Harden.

Interesting that the Nuggets won’t play MPJ next 3 games for “COVID protocol” reasons. And we sat Pascal out for the equivalent of jaywalking across from your own house. Also notice that we’re not playing Flynn, so he’s probably in the trade talks too, but I don’t want to include him. Or maybe we’re trying to hide him, lol.

Pascal is a perfect fit for Denver after they lost Jerami Grant. Jokic/Murray/Pascal is a legit championship core for years.

Are you sure you are not the burner account of Bobby? Very well thought out trade proposal golden.

Follow up trade in March of Van Vleet to promote Flynn as the understudy of Lowry.

[S.R.]

Siakam seems like a really emotionally driven player who's been struggling, maybe with expectations, contract, the lack of fans, or all of the above. He clearly feeds off flow and energy and excitement and seems to struggle when it's not there.

His responsibility now is to develop through that. For most of last season, up until the bubble, he was All-NBA good. He's played 3 games this year. We need to stop pretending development doesn't have speed bumps and also pretending he's suddenly been shit forever. That's not true at all. Man started in the ASG less than a year ago.