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Game #6 Boston Celtics @ Toronto Raptors. Monday, January 4, 2021, 7:30 PM, Sportsnet

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  • #31
    RandomGuy wrote: View Post

    Jerami Grant is making 1/30th of Siakams salary and right now he's looking like Siakam 2.0, he got his opportunity in Pistons and he's using every second on the court to prove it.

    Edit: ok, they've signed him for $20mil a year in Nov, good for him, he's earning it.
    And Pascal was great when he was used the same way as Grant is now. At the least we know if his role were to revert to the same he would once again be able to perform in the same manner.

    This is the season to find out if he has what it takes to step up as more than that.

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    • #32
      planetmars wrote: View Post
      Pascal will bounce back. The sample size of his poor play is growing and it sucks, but I have not jumped off the Pascal hype train yet.

      When he tries to hard to make something happen it has backfired.. but he's also really good at moving the ball if he has to. He had a few passes last game that got bobbled by Baynes that lead to bad shots/turnovers. He had that nice little move in the post for a layup/dunk where he split two defenders. Nurse needs to put him in better spots to get his confidence back. Maybe some PnR action? Kyle/Siakam would be deadly but they never use it.

      The biggest problem is that the game has sped up for him. It needs to slow down again. He plays way to frenetically and that includes defense. Hence his fouling out so many times. He thinks he has to make a big play which ends up backfiring. He doesn't need to hit a homerun. He needs to hit a bunch of singles. Get some confidence back, then go for the home runs again. His pace is so out of whack. Maybe he needs the energy of a crowd?

      I think he just needs one really good game. Where he goes something like 7/11 for 22 points with a bunch of steals, blocks in a decisive win. Would be pretty cool if it happened tonight against a good defensive team.
      Its a bad combination of Pascal being thrust into that #1 option spot and Nurse experimenting/developing Pascal into a #1 option by putting him in situations where he has to attack defenders in isos or double teams.

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      • #33
        A.I wrote: View Post

        Its a bad combination of Pascal being thrust into that #1 option spot and Nurse experimenting/developing Pascal into a #1 option by putting him in situations where he has to attack defenders in isos or double teams.
        Yeah possibly.. but he had that role all of last year too, and we had a pretty good team last year. It's not like Gasol or Serge were #1 options. Everyone else is the same.

        He was an NBA all-star starter and on the second team all-nba team. Both were warranted. Neither were controversial selections at the time. He was awesome last year.. and was a #1 option too.

        He got hurt, then the unexpected layoff, then the bubble, and now here we are. You can say defenses caught up to him.. but it's not like New Orleans, San Antonio or Philly suddenly defended him differently. He was doing well against those teams last year as the #1 option.

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        • #34
          G__Deane wrote: View Post

          With the benching, the poor game results the next time out, the multiple ejections, the team record at 1-4 and facing a division foe, if Siakam can't get up for this one then they better order him some little blue pills ....
          "Getting up for" is probably not what we want from Pascal. If anything we need him to be a little more laid back. He is trying way too hard. If he get's up for Boston tonight, it will be another long night.

          This is all my opinion but I think he needs to slow his game down a lot. Be a role player for a couple of games. Pick his spots but let the game come to him and not force it. He's not ready to force it yet.

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          • #35
            planetmars wrote: View Post

            "Getting up for" is probably not what we want from Pascal. If anything we need him to be a little more laid back. He is trying way too hard. If he get's up for Boston tonight, it will be another long night.

            This is all my opinion but I think he needs to slow his game down a lot. Be a role player for a couple of games. Pick his spots but let the game come to him and not force it. He's not ready to force it yet.
            Pascal probably thinks the same. Tries to "Get up for it", ends up thinking and doing too much and plays poorly.

            I agree though, he needs to let the guards handle the ball more and play off ball whether thats being the screener on a pick and roll or cuts. He is in his head. I'm hoping at some point something just clicks and he figures it out.

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            • #36
              planetmars wrote: View Post

              "Getting up for" is probably not what we want from Pascal. If anything we need him to be a little more laid back. He is trying way too hard. If he get's up for Boston tonight, it will be another long night.

              This is all my opinion but I think he needs to slow his game down a lot. Be a role player for a couple of games. Pick his spots but let the game come to him and not force it. He's not ready to force it yet.
              It would be nice if Boston lets him off the hook by letting him sit back and pick his spots. More likely though they will be pressuring Lowry and FVV and they will be looking for outlets (Siakam). This time around we won't have Marc and Gasol to take the pressure off the guards, so Nurse may need to get TD or Flynn in there.

              Boucher should get the start over Baynes in this one, or be subbed in relatively quickly.

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              • #37


                So no Kemba, Teague and possibly Smart. Guess Boston will be starting their rookie PG?

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                • #38
                  planetmars wrote: View Post

                  Yeah possibly.. but he had that role all of last year too, and we had a pretty good team last year. It's not like Gasol or Serge were #1 options. Everyone else is the same.

                  He was an NBA all-star starter and on the second team all-nba team. Both were warranted. Neither were controversial selections at the time. He was awesome last year.. and was a #1 option too.

                  He got hurt, then the unexpected layoff, then the bubble, and now here we are. You can say defenses caught up to him.. but it's not like New Orleans, San Antonio or Philly suddenly defended him differently. He was doing well against those teams last year as the #1 option.
                  Pascal IS being defended differently, or better said... more diligently. Teams are clearly taking away the baseline spin move and having a second defender waiting on the interior spin. Pascal is frustrated because his step-back counters aren't falling... everything seems to be hitting front rim. If those start going down, then he will be out of the slump. Until then, he's basically been figured out.

                  People seem to be ignoring the fact that coaches and players had like 5-6 months off to do nothing but look at game film, and scout top teams like us after Covid shut things down. The Bucks system also got figured out somewhat, heading into the bubble, and the Heat fully exploited those weaknesses.

                  And as a team, in general, opposing teams are taking away the Raptors' transition game - we were #1 last year. Sometimes they have lapses, but by and large, getting back in transition is something the opposing defense can focus on and control. In the Pels game, we used a zone defense to make them hoist bricks, which helped spark the transition game with Fred getting a lot of buckets.... but that wasn't sustainable. You need to be able score in the half-court against a set defense to break those long scoring droughts.

                  If our half-court offense is simply going to continue to be hoisting 3's, then we might as well start Matt Thomas and play variations of zone defense for long stretches like the Heat do.

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                  • #39
                    golden wrote: View Post

                    If our half-court offense is simply going to continue to be hoisting 3's, then we might as well start Matt Thomas and play variations of zone defense for long stretches like the Heat do.
                    This is one of the disconnects for me: if the team is just jacking 45 threes every game then why is your best three point shooter riding the pine? I didn't think Thomas played badly and he was shooting 50% from 3-point range but he's completely out of the rotation after three games?

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                    • #40
                      planetmars wrote: View Post

                      "Getting up for" is probably not what we want from Pascal. If anything we need him to be a little more laid back. He is trying way too hard. If he get's up for Boston tonight, it will be another long night.

                      This is all my opinion but I think he needs to slow his game down a lot. Be a role player for a couple of games. Pick his spots but let the game come to him and not force it. He's not ready to force it yet.
                      Maybe he needs to get more determined and less angry/frustrated?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        planetmars wrote: View Post


                        So no Kemba, Teague and possibly Smart. Guess Boston will be starting their rookie PG?
                        Perfect Raptor set-up for a blowout loss

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          slaw wrote: View Post

                          This is one of the disconnects for me: if the team is just jacking 45 threes every game then why is your best three point shooter riding the pine? I didn't think Thomas played badly and he was shooting 50% from 3-point range but he's completely out of the rotation after three games?
                          Yanking the chain of bench players is a bigger issue, actually. Nurse appears to have un-dying loyalty to anybody who was on the championship team, which is fully understandable. They get a guaranteed minutes, a consistent role and they get to play with better players (i.e. Lowry, and pre-bubble Pascal). But any new free agent or young guy who is trying to crack the lineup has to work their way up from garbage time and playing with other scrubs. The only other way it seems to get a fair shot at a consistent role is simply out of necessity (e.g. Baynes).

                          Nurse has earned the benefit of the doubt, no question. But from the outside looking in, it seems like he's creating a two-tiered standard that is making it really difficult for newer guys to gain confidence and find their footing.

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                          • #43
                            planetmars wrote: View Post

                            "Getting up for" is probably not what we want from Pascal. If anything we need him to be a little more laid back. He is trying way too hard. If he get's up for Boston tonight, it will be another long night.

                            This is all my opinion but I think he needs to slow his game down a lot. Be a role player for a couple of games. Pick his spots but let the game come to him and not force it. He's not ready to force it yet.
                            I have a different read wrt Siakam

                            I have noticed for a while that he has not been trying hard enough on defense, to challenge the shooter specifically. He makes an effort to look like he is trying to challenge... but he's not actually trying to challenge the shot... it's a token run out with a hand up. That is a vast difference from actually troubling the shooter. I suspect Siakam is being asked to play harder on defense and now he is fouling more. He's not playing harder, he's just fouling more. He may be underperforming on defense because he is struggling on offense, and he is an emotional player. I find it pretty unforgivable, defense is the one constant you can bring, but it happens I guess.

                            On offense, I suspect he is being asked to play within the context of the offense, to not force his own offense, to take what the defense gives him, to (learn to) pass out of the double team, all for the betterment of the team. What I'm seeing from him is an almost petulant response to that ask. He is passing when he has a guard on him down low, he is making careless / just plain bad passes at bad times out of the double and then when they get picked off he gets upset, throws his hands up and is almost like "SEE?!" to the coaching staff (I believe the crazy fouling frequency is a similar petulant response to being asked to play harder on defense). I do not believe he is making a good faith effort to do what is asked of him by the coaching staff. More than Siakam's play, it is this attitude that really worries me. Surely he knows his shooting percentage is horrible. If he doesn't he is very stupid. And at this point, this is not a slump. This is a large sample and it is due to the kind of shots he is taking.

                            Yes I have noticed the manic way he has played in the past that lead to others saying that he needs to slow down. I get that. He does need to play under control. But he is not working too hard, not by any stretch of the imagination. He is not working nearly hard enough.

                            If he is refusing to do what is asked of him, then we have a real problem on our hands. This goes deeper than whether he can be a true #1 or is destined to be a #2 or #3 option. The things they're asking him to do, play hard on defense, shoot high percentage shots, pass out of the double team, be a good teammate, those are universal regardless of whether he's our #1 option. If he has no interest in trying to improve for the betterment of the team and has adopted a diva like attitude after being an allstar and getting his max money that is now manifesting itself in to him behaving like a baby when asked to do things by our coaching staff, then heaven help us.







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                            • #44
                              MixxAOR wrote: View Post

                              ...

                              I couldn't find exact article but I remember Nurse saying he wanted to challenge Pascal in different ways and put him in uncomfortable situations so he's ready and I think he said something along the lines of "If we have to sacrifice games so be it".
                              ...
                              There's a double edge on that sword, and we're seeing one edge of it with Pascal right now. I've coached soccer and basketball before (youth), and in both sports, around age 16, you start to see the differences in which how certain players respond to different types of coaching. They way they play is in many ways an extension of their personality.

                              Group 1 crave drills. They want to hone fundamentals, look forward to the part of the practice where the clipboard comes out, so they can learn structured plays, and later, rationally apply themselves to execute them. You can push this group to the moon and they'll keep responding and improving. These guys are never down, because when the heat is on, they'll fall back to their fundamentals, weather the storm, and plow through it.

                              Group 2 are artists. They are able to react extremely quickly to new situations on the court, because they play with spontaneity. They're not thinking of the clipboard too much, they're playing with their heart and emotions. They feed on crowds. They like music in the gym, and will break open games for you when they're happy, but struggle to find the mental framework to get out of a rut in the game/season. In soccer, guys like Lionel Messi, Pele and Ronaldo are in this group. They're dancing out there, and coaches would be dumb to throw the clipboard at them. They play with their heart in their sleeves. I heard in Brazil (which has produced a chunk of the best soccer players in the world), they call it "Ginga". Google "ginga in sports"

                              It's not always black and white, but Pascal is more like a group 2 kind of guy. Man grew up playing soccer in Cameroon. But we're not really coaching him like that group. Kawhi left, we threw the book at him as to what we wanted him to be, and he better lose his Ginga and methodically learn how to post-up, iso, and midrange. Also, don't forget to be flawless defensively, and master all the intricacies of team defence and coverages, with maximum physical and mental effort, because you'll often be covering the best opposing player. Then be prepared to also be the go-to on the offence following the book we gave you. "We're developing you fast, you better become Kawhi right away, cuz we lost him".

                              The quote that first raised the flag for me was on pre-game October-ish 2019. Marquee game vs the Bucks, first of the season. Kawhi had just left, but the team was proud. Coach and players, anxious to prove themselves without him. A reporter asked who would be covering Giannis. Nurse said something on the lines of "We'll have Pascal as his primary defender. He's young, he can handle it", half joking, half serious. OG, our best defender, was healthy and available, but they wanted to "push" Pascal. We lost that game.

                              It's like a really smart kid that skipped a grade (as a MIP), but we're hungry, so we want you to skip two. So far, that approach looks like a backfire to me. But hey, maybe these things take time to pay off, who knows.



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                              • #45
                                Re post above: this is not an excuse or a knock on Pascal. Just my personal take on coaching based on my experiences. At the end of the day players need to own up to the good and the bad as well

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