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  • golden wrote: View Post

    How is that random? Mars talked about trading FVV and that could be a potential solution to balance the roster and also free up development minutes at the guard spot.

    Fred is either a very undersized SG or a PG that doesn’t get his teammates easy baskets. But he’s taking up 40 minutes a night. And we’re talking about not drafting certain players because people want to have a normal sized backcourt going forward. It’s a relevant conversation to have, re: Fred’s minutes and best suited role.
    Fred's current position and role is because of the circumstances when Kawhi and Danny left. He started because of that and broke out before Norm did. I don't think he is suited to lead a championship level team as the main PG unless he develops into a floor general (he has shown some flashes like the Clippers game) or Raptors draft a wing player capable of handling the ball and being a playmaker like Doncic or Harden and Fred becomes a secondary ball handler.

    You also don't choose to skip out on a player in the draft because the spot is taken by Fred. You take the BPA, if that player happens to become a better player than Fred, then Fred becomes a trade asset. I guess the issue becomes how the new rookie will get minutes, assuming Kyle isn't back next season, Fred/Flynn take up the PG spot, GTJ/Rookie/Harris take up the SG spot depending on who plays better or breaks out.

    This is a good issue to have though, Raptors have some assets.

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    • golden wrote: View Post

      How is that random? Mars talked about trading FVV and that could be a potential solution to balance the roster and also free up development minutes at the guard spot.

      Fred is either a very undersized SG or a PG that doesn’t get his teammates easy baskets. But he’s taking up 40 minutes a night. And we’re talking about not drafting certain players because people want to have a normal sized backcourt going forward. It’s a relevant conversation to have, re: Fred’s minutes and best suited role.
      How is it possible for him to bang out 6+ assist a night and not be getting his teammates easy baskets? He had a really good season all things considered and I'm guessing as the players around him improve you're going to see his efficiency improve as well. FVV isn't getting traded unless there is a complete teardown of the roster.

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      • I don’t think we have a position of need, you take the best player at any position. We need to upgrade the talent of this team, if it means someone currently starting comes off the bench so be it.

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        • From what I’ve seen of Springer he is not a top 10 talent. Watch some full games of him playing.

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          • saints91 wrote: View Post
            From what I’ve seen of Springer he is not a top 10 talent. Watch some full games of him playing.
            Who is in your Top 10?
            Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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            • golden wrote: View Post

              FVV’s impact (good and bad) on player development, style of play and roster construction is a conversation that needs to be had. He’s best suited as a backup, combo guard, 6th man type of role, but he’s a starter who is limited as either a PG or SG and doesn’t necessarily elevate other players, especially bench guys, like Lowry used to.
              Yeah Fred's a good player, but he's a tweener tricky to place on an overall 5-man offence. Every team needs a player that can initiate torsion (microcracks) on an opposing set defence, so someone on the team can get a quality shot at the end of the possession. In the old days, this was almost always your point guard, but these days that can be a wing.

              Classic point guards will create torsion by surveying the whole floor (the other 9 players, including strong-side and weak-side of the offence), reading what the opposing defence will most likely give you, and using a combination of on and off-ball screens to find your most open man (or take the shot himself if that's the best option).Wing initiators will create torsion by attracting doubles due to a combination of length/speed/athleticism. If the wing is good, they will recognize that and find the open spot-up shooter, cutter, or big under the basket.

              Fred is a good player but he will do neither of those things at the moment. The basket is his main focus, and he will first and foremost look for his shot. That makes him a classic shooting guard. A typical offensive possession initiated by Fred will end in
              --Dribbling out a lot of the clock on the perimeter, then either giving someone a hot potato at the end of the clock, or shooting a 3 himself after a screen assist from a big
              --Letting out a very deep 3 near the logo, as that's where he finds the space when coverages on him are aggressive (Celtics, Philly, Heat)
              --A head-down rim barrell, where he will sometimes convert, sometimes kick to the corner shooter at the last moment, but a lot of times get stuffed
              --When he's tired from his prior defensive possession (which to his credit he exerts a lot of positive energy there), drops to Pascal in the post and let him start it
              --Thankfully lately (last 1/3 of the season), a budding mid-range jumper.

              If someone else initiates the offence though, he will relentlessly punish teams from 3's, and effectively take lanes to the rim, while continuing to move the ball effectively to keep the defence on their heels. In other words, he's a better offensive end-point than offensive starting point. Ideal backcourt partners for him are taller, quick players that can initiate collective offence, even if they're not necessarily great shooters (Ex. Ja Morant, Ben Simmons, De'Aaron Fox; from the draft that would be Suggs, Cunningham or Giddey, but you of course take the best overall player on the board).

              That way you get a reverse look with a tall/quick PG and shorter/slower SG, but you still get all you need in terms of ball handling, shooting, creation, and defence out of your backcourt.
              Last edited by inthepaint; Sun May 16, 2021, 08:22 AM.
              2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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              • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                Yeah Fred's a good player, but he's a tweener tricky to place on an overall 5-man offence. Every team needs a player that can initiate torsion (microcracks) on an opposing set defence, so someone on the team can get a quality shot at the end of the possession. In the old days, this was almost always your point guard, but these days that can be a wing.

                Classic point guards will create torsion by surveying the whole floor (the other 9 players, including strong-side and weak-side of the offence), reading what the opposing defence will most likely give you, and using a combination of on and off-ball screens to find your most open man (or take the shot himself if that's the best option).Wing initiators will create torsion by attracting doubles due to a combination of length/speed/athleticism. If the wing is good, they will recognize that and find the open spot-up shooter, cutter, or big under the basket.

                Fred is a good player but he will do neither of those things at the moment. The basket is his main focus, and he will first and foremost look for his shot. That makes him a classic shooting guard. A typical offensive possession initiated by Fred will end in
                --Dribbling out a lot of the clock on the perimeter, then either giving someone a hot potato at the end of the clock, or shooting a 3 himself after a screen assist from a big
                --Letting out a very deep 3 near the logo, as that's where he finds the space when coverages on him are aggressive (Celtics, Philly, Heat)
                --A head-down rim barrell, where he will sometimes convert, sometimes kick to the corner shooter at the last moment, but a lot of times get stuffed
                --When he's tired from his prior defensive possession (which to his credit he exerts a lot of positive energy there), drops to Pascal in the post and let him start it
                --Thankfully lately (last 1/3 of the season), a budding mid-range jumper.

                If someone else initiates the offence though, he will relentlessly punish teams from 3's, and effectively take lanes to the rim, while continuing to move the ball effectively to keep the defence on their heels. In other words, he's a better offensive end-point than offensive starting point. Ideal backcourt partners for him are taller, quick players that can initiate collective offence, even if they're not necessarily great shooters (Ex. Ja Morant, Ben Simmons, De'Aaron Fox; from the draft that would be Suggs, Cunningham or Giddey, but you of course take the best overall player on the board).

                That way you get a reverse look with a tall/quick PG and shorter/slower SG, but you still get all you need in terms of ball handling, shooting, creation, and defence out of your backcourt.
                bottomline...Van Vleet is a flawed player, yet he is a tradeable asset to the right team because of his championship pedigree but most especially his 20 million price tag.

                if I am a retooling team, I would rather develop a 22 year old player with potential like Flynn vs. a 28 year old with so little of room to improve..he is what he is.

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                • this is why I would love to get Cade above mobley because it puts everyone into a proper place on offense.

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                  • Whatever pre draft tool this Raptors use to assess a player...BPA it is.

                    no argument on that

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                    • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                      bottomline...Van Vleet is a flawed player, yet he is a tradeable asset to the right team because of his championship pedigree but most especially his 20 million price tag.

                      if I am a retooling team, I would rather develop a 22 year old player with potential like Flynn vs. a 28 year old with so little of room to improve..he is what he is.
                      "What he is" is a lifetime 38% three-shooter who plays defense at a borderline DPOY-nominee level and averaged 20/4/6 this year who also goes through the roof on most advanced stats.

                      People's standards for "a good player" on this board are legitimately insane sometimes.

                      Comment


                      • magoon wrote: View Post

                        "What he is" is a lifetime 38% three-shooter who plays defense at a borderline DPOY-nominee level and averaged 20/4/6 this year who also goes through the roof on most advanced stats.

                        People's standards for "a good player" on this board are legitimately insane sometimes.
                        a Flawed player can still be a good player but still a very tradeable asset

                        we had one for a decade and a 28 year old Derozan got us a high risk high reward elite player

                        So that’s that

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                        • saints91 wrote: View Post
                          I don’t think we have a position of need, you take the best player at any position. We need to upgrade the talent of this team, if it means someone currently starting comes off the bench so be it.
                          We absolutely need an upgrade at C. I've been saying all season that C is the spot where you just need a serviceable player but if you can't get a top 10-15 type talent then you absolutely want to load up on all 5 positions with good players. Birch is serviceable but Mobley for example gives us 5 guys that can go off each night.

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                          • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                            We absolutely need an upgrade at C. I've been saying all season that C is the spot where you just need a serviceable player but if you can't get a top 10-15 type talent then you absolutely want to load up on all 5 positions with good players. Birch is serviceable but Mobley for example gives us 5 guys that can go off each night.
                            You can't expect Mobley to be a contributor in year 1.. maybe 3 or 4. Bigs take a long time to develop.

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                            • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                              We absolutely need an upgrade at C. I've been saying all season that C is the spot where you just need a serviceable player but if you can't get a top 10-15 type talent then you absolutely want to load up on all 5 positions with good players. Birch is serviceable but Mobley for example gives us 5 guys that can go off each night.
                              what people are saying i think is if Jalen Green and Cade are superstars and Mobley ends up being servicable or fringe All-Star it will be upsetting and "we needed a centre" will be a weak excuse
                              Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

                              Comment


                              • Perhaps we should wait on the results of the ping pong balls before getting into passionate discussions debating the merits of the top of the draft class

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