Kagemusha wrote:
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Everything Draft 2021
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Maury wrote: View PostI watched a Giddey game and I honestly don't know how to evaluate him because it looked like a YMCA game. The competition was so poor that I think it's really tough to tell if he's gonna be able to create offensively as he has done in Australia and if he can survive on defense because laterally he is not quick and he doesn't look all that strong either. His frame has obviously filled out but I'm definitely not sold on him.
I agree its really hard to evaluate young players to start with and especially hard in a league where there are no benchmarks on competition levels.
So following up the negative with a positive.. someone found Cake Makar playing Jr B in the AJHL..There's no such thing as a 2nd round bust.
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Kagemusha wrote: View PostJalen Green is being compared to Jalen Harris. LOL
A top 4 pick in a loaded draft versus a 59th pick
slow day , I guess.
I'm not saying Green is bad.. he's still high on my board, but Jalen Harris might be as good as he is. He has a 3 year leg up on him which is a big difference in age, but that may or not eventually matter. Their professional experience is pretty much similar and they put up similar stats.
The only reason I bring up Harris is because he's already on our team and is dirt cheap. Just give Harris more usage and I bet he could put up 25 points a night.. heck he put up 31 against Dallas who was fielding all their players and was trying to win, and was scoring in multiple different ways. Spending big money on a guy that is already on the roster who's so much cheaper may not be a good bang for your buck.
We shouldn't just assume Green will be better than Harris because one is considered a top 4 pick in a "loaded" draft, and the other went 59th in a "weak" draft. Not when the 59th pick was selected by Tolzman and our front office, and this "loaded" draft could just end up being all hype.
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planetmars wrote: View Post
Draft position can be a bad reason to rank someone over someone else. I mean Dragan Bender was selected 4th in his draft, and was a consensus pick around there too. Yet I bet most teams would rather have Fred VanVleet over Bender who went undrafted. Terence Davis was on the all rookie team (so top 10 rookie), and he went undrafted too.
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Maury wrote: View Post
Don't flame me for this, but KAT would look great on this team. It's really tough between him and Booker. If KAT wasn't so bad that year in the playoffs it would be an easy choice for me. But look at it this way, Trex- Booker and KAT were both perennial losers until last year, when one of their teams traded for Chris Paul and drafted a whole bunch of two way rotation players, while the other's team traded for Dlo and drafted Jarret Culver, while firing their coach for the 69th time in 3 years.
KAT had a good supporting cast in 2018, no? he had Butler on his team, Rose, Gibson, Wiggins....that's a pretty good. I think they finished 8th that year and got swept in the playoffs. But forget KAT, just look at Anthony Davis(who's the better player) Pelicans career. The Pels were a perennial 8th/9th seed with him as the guy. Now let's look at his Lakers career. Did you know Davis has a record of 5-7 with the Lakers without LeBron in his career.
Mamba Mentality
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planetmars wrote: View Post
Draft position can be a bad reason to rank someone over someone else. I mean Dragan Bender was selected 4th in his draft, and was a consensus pick around there too. Yet I bet most teams would rather have Fred VanVleet over Bender who went undrafted. Terence Davis was on the all rookie team (so top 10 rookie), and he went undrafted too.
I'm not saying Green is bad.. he's still high on my board, but Jalen Harris might be as good as he is. He has a 3 year leg up on him which is a big difference in age, but that may or not eventually matter. Their professional experience is pretty much similar and they put up similar stats.
The only reason I bring up Harris is because he's already on our team and is dirt cheap. Just give Harris more usage and I bet he could put up 25 points a night.. heck he put up 31 against Dallas who was fielding all their players and was trying to win, and was scoring in multiple different ways. Spending big money on a guy that is already on the roster who's so much cheaper may not be a good bang for your buck.
We shouldn't just assume Green will be better than Harris because one is considered a top 4 pick in a "loaded" draft, and the other went 59th in a "weak" draft. Not when the 59th pick was selected by Tolzman and our front office, and this "loaded" draft could just end up being all hype.
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LJ2 wrote: View Post
I look at it like if Raps can find players like Siakam, FVV etc late in the draft or undrafted and develop them into starters, then they can find guys at the top of the draft and develop them into Michael Jordan.
Either way we've had history with this front office drafting a player in the lottery. I like Poeltl but he's still a role player. We could draft another one with the lottery pick. For example, Mobley looks like a role player too. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of our second rounders ends up better than our first rounder.. just like it happened in 2016.
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LJ2 wrote: View Post
I look at it like if Raps can find players like Siakam, FVV etc late in the draft or undrafted and develop them into starters, then they can find guys at the top of the draft and develop them into Michael Jordan.
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planetmars wrote: View Post
Lol.. sure, but not always. Part of development is usage. Flynn got better later in the season but he also got more playing time because Fred/Lowry hardly played. You get a guy like Green or even Cade, I doubt they start right off the bat, which likely means they don't turn into a star overnight.. but we would also probably have to look at moving Fred or Pascal if we want that player to turn into a star.
Either way we've had history with this front office drafting a player in the lottery. I like Poeltl but he's still a role player. We could draft another one with the lottery pick. For example, Mobley looks like a role player too. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of our second rounders ends up better than our first rounder.. just like it happened in 2016.
First of all thats why you have a development system. Secondly it depends on who is on the bench. There is no reason why Green for example can't play off the bench in a lower pressure situation in his first year. Still get 20-30 minutes. Flynn struggled early on to produce and lost his chance and then later was given it when injuries happened. But he was given a chance early on.
Secondly, if you have a guy like Cade why cant he co-exist with FVV? There is literally no reason for that. He is more of a playmaker anyways so it bumps everyone down a peg into their natural spots. It likely makes one of Harris or Trent expendable which is why Cade fits better because you can play him behind OG even and as well as in the starting line up or off the bench as the two guard for obvious reasons. He can likely play 3 positions.
I am not sure if it was you or someone else recently that said something similar but yeah I really don't understand why we need to suddenly RUSH to go trade pascal just because we got Cade or Green. I can see Fred being moved to keep kyle potentially but again I don't necessarily think we need to do that.
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TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
I don't think you have to move Fred or Pascal if you Draft Green or Cade. There is literally no reason for that. Definitely not right away and likely not necessary at all.
First of all thats why you have a development system. Secondly it depends on who is on the bench. There is no reason why Green for example can't play off the bench in a lower pressure situation in his first year. Still get 20-30 minutes. Flynn struggled early on to produce and lost his chance and then later was given it when injuries happened. But he was given a chance early on.
Secondly, if you have a guy like Cade why cant he co-exist with FVV? There is literally no reason for that. He is more of a playmaker anyways so it bumps everyone down a peg into their natural spots. It likely makes one of Harris or Trent expendable which is why Cade fits better because you can play him behind OG even and as well as in the starting line up or off the bench as the two guard for obvious reasons. He can likely play 3 positions.
I am not sure if it was you or someone else recently that said something similar but yeah I really don't understand why we need to suddenly RUSH to go trade pascal just because we got Cade or Green. I can see Fred being moved to keep kyle potentially but again I don't necessarily think we need to do that.
I wish the lottery was sooner. Really just spinning our wheels here on the forum until we know where we're gonna pick.
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TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
I don't think you have to move Fred or Pascal if you Draft Green or Cade. There is literally no reason for that. Definitely not right away and likely not necessary at all.
First of all thats why you have a development system. Secondly it depends on who is on the bench. There is no reason why Green for example can't play off the bench in a lower pressure situation in his first year. Still get 20-30 minutes. Flynn struggled early on to produce and lost his chance and then later was given it when injuries happened. But he was given a chance early on.
Secondly, if you have a guy like Cade why cant he co-exist with FVV? There is literally no reason for that. He is more of a playmaker anyways so it bumps everyone down a peg into their natural spots. It likely makes one of Harris or Trent expendable which is why Cade fits better because you can play him behind OG even and as well as in the starting line up or off the bench as the two guard for obvious reasons. He can likely play 3 positions.
I am not sure if it was you or someone else recently that said something similar but yeah I really don't understand why we need to suddenly RUSH to go trade pascal just because we got Cade or Green. I can see Fred being moved to keep kyle potentially but again I don't necessarily think we need to do that.
Green could play off the bench but so can Harris. And that's my point between the two. Why get Green if we already have Harris who plays the same position and can in theory put up the same type of production? Might be a waste of a draft pick in Green if we go that way. Or we could trade Harris, or just drop him (his contract should be small). And let the two battle to see who'd be our up and coming shooting guard.
Cade could co-exist with Fred for sure if Lowry isn't here. But he is a multi-position player too since he's apparently 6'8. So he can play 4 positions and that means there is a better opportunity for him to get minutes. At guard though we also have Trent Jr, Flynn and Harris to battle with for that 2-spot. We shouldn't just pencil in the top draft pick ahead of that pecking order until they prove themselves (like in training camp, in the G-league, or via opportunity due to an injury, etc).
At the end of the day if we pick someone and they are looking like a real star player then we have to shuffle players around so that we can utilize that player the most optimal way. We were able to do that okay with Kawhi and everyone just moved down a spot. OG went to the bench (but then he got hurt). Fred eventually took Green's spot in the starting unit but was coming off the bench too for most of that year. Norm rarely played and it showed. He was very inconsistent and looked pretty much like the odd man out that season. But injuries (ie, Kawhi's load management) helped him get some playing time too later on in the season.
I don't expect our rookie to have a significant impact in year 1. But by year 2 or 3 if we have the real deal, then I suspect someone gets traded.. even if that someone is Flynn, Harris or Trent Jr.
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planetmars wrote: View Post
I don't believe we have to move anyone in year 1 of the draft pick. But you might eventually if you want them to become stars. Nurse has given the green light to Pascal and Fred.. so they'll be the ones carrying the ball majority of the time. If the rookie wants to come in and get a majority of minutes in year 1, they'll have to play a role, but that's typically the case for rookies as they get acclimated to the game.
Green could play off the bench but so can Harris. And that's my point between the two. Why get Green if we already have Harris who plays the same position and can in theory put up the same type of production? Might be a waste of a draft pick in Green if we go that way. Or we could trade Harris, or just drop him (his contract should be small). And let the two battle to see who'd be our up and coming shooting guard.
Cade could co-exist with Fred for sure if Lowry isn't here. But he is a multi-position player too since he's apparently 6'8. So he can play 4 positions and that means there is a better opportunity for him to get minutes. At guard though we also have Trent Jr, Flynn and Harris to battle with for that 2-spot. We shouldn't just pencil in the top draft pick ahead of that pecking order until they prove themselves (like in training camp, in the G-league, or via opportunity due to an injury, etc).
At the end of the day if we pick someone and they are looking like a real star player then we have to shuffle players around so that we can utilize that player the most optimal way. We were able to do that okay with Kawhi and everyone just moved down a spot. OG went to the bench (but then he got hurt). Fred eventually took Green's spot in the starting unit but was coming off the bench too for most of that year. Norm rarely played and it showed. He was very inconsistent and looked pretty much like the odd man out that season. But injuries (ie, Kawhi's load management) helped him get some playing time too later on in the season.
I don't expect our rookie to have a significant impact in year 1. But by year 2 or 3 if we have the real deal, then I suspect someone gets traded.. even if that someone is Flynn, Harris or Trent Jr.
I think either way who ever we draft will not be starting to start the year. Like I suggested I could see Harris or Trent being traded depending on who we draft and who is available to get more roster balance in the future. Like if we don't draft mobley it would be to get a center. I don't think its a "usage" issue at all.
OG was in and about of the line up with injuries as well so don 't forget about that ... but our best line ups included both him and kawhi. Call me new school but I believe with the correct individuals you can play positionless. OG and Siakam are very switchable in a lot of ways on both offense and defence.
Lowry being gone automatically will clean up some of the play time issues but again... playing fred or any of our guys 40 minutes night after night after night during the season will not leave us healthy enough.
I still think if we ever make a trade it will be Fred and not Siakam because of how good and switchable Siakam is. Siakam and OG together are both all NBA level.
Personally I wouldn't draft Green though. Suggs makes sense. After Suggs I'd argue for Kuminga... because of the development time line... you would see a situation like the Nuggets with MPJ... Again though .... worst case scenario you have someone that you can trade to balance the roster or get a guy if one of these people aren't "the guy"
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planetmars wrote: View Post
Lol.. sure, but not always. Part of development is usage. Flynn got better later in the season but he also got more playing time because Fred/Lowry hardly played. You get a guy like Green or even Cade, I doubt they start right off the bat, which likely means they don't turn into a star overnight.. but we would also probably have to look at moving Fred or Pascal if we want that player to turn into a star.
Either way we've had history with this front office drafting a player in the lottery. I like Poeltl but he's still a role player. We could draft another one with the lottery pick. For example, Mobley looks like a role player too. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of our second rounders ends up better than our first rounder.. just like it happened in 2016.
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Here was my big board on May 18th (top 10 guys in the draft):
1. Cade
2. Suggs
3. Green
4. Mobley
5. Kuminga
6. Moody
7. Johnson (Keon)
8. Bouknight
9. Barnes
10. Sengun
Coming out with a new top 10 after spending a lot of my day watching various videos (mostly highlight reels lol).
1. Cade
2. Suggs
3. Green
4. Mobley
5. Moody
6. Wagner
7. Kuminga
8. Bouknight
9. Johnson (Keon)
10. Sengun
I am a bit scared to death of Kuminga. Has a lot of potential. Good handles, but just has no polish to his game. That is fixable but still a risk. I just think he may have too many weaknesses. So I'm taking the stability in either Moody or (Wagner - surprise) ahead of him. Franz Wagner is an underrated defender (I think he's really good actually), and just has that elite 3&D potential to his game that I'd love to see on this team. I didn't have him in my top 10 a week ago, but he's already jumped to 6. Lol. I'll probably change my mind again in a week.
I also came to the conclusion that I don't want Scottie Barnes at all. So I took him off my top 10. Just feel he's going to be the big bust of this draft class. I just don't think his shot is correctable, and if we play him we'll be playing 4vs5 on offense. And we have trouble scoring as it is at times. He's a good passer, but that means he needs the ball. I'd rather give the ball to Fred, Pascal, OG or Malachi.
It's a toss up between Keon and Bouknight. One looks like a great defender, the other a great scorer. I think Bouknight could become a better defender than Keon can learn to score/shoot though. So I've flipped positions for the two. Sengun looks like a Sabonis clone. And that's a safe bet at 10.
I'd take all these guys over Mitchell or Springer too (for now).
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G__Deane wrote: View Post
Or perhaps the Raptors are good at finding serviceable players in the later rounds but no better than anyone else where there's a basically a consensus same 8 players in the top 5 on everyone's list?
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